[Identity V] lore/history/mythology comparison talk
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because tonight on a whim I rolled into studying Hei Bai Wu Chang and all the rad information there is on both historical evidence vs religious word-of-mouth storytelling and it's just overwhelmingly cool
especially when compared to Netease's representation of them/(him) and how it all overlaps
one of the things I also really enjoyed was how most (translated) retellings came with the memo of: this is how my grandmother/grandfather told this story, or his father told him, etc etc
which like, given how much is verbally passed down between generations is awesome
-to see directly in play in the immediate timeline
running off of that detail into a segue, much of this is retelling/second hand information, and I'll punch in the cited historical information towards the end, so if anything is inorrect that I haven't had time to dig into and deeply research yet, and you know better (or know anything at all) feel free to chime in
or correct what's in this plurk, because I'm all about it
''黑白无常 Hei Bai Wu Chang (Black white Impermanence)is their title, Their real name are 范无赦 Fan Wushe and 谢必安 Xie Bian''
''In some instances, the Heibai Wuchang are represented as a single being – instead of two separate beings – known as the Wuchang Gui (also romanised Wu-ch'ang Kuei), literally "Ghost of Impermanence".
Depending on the person it encounters, the Wuchang Gui can appear as either a fortune deity who rewards the person for doing good deeds or a malevolent deity who punishes the person for committing evil.''
''黑无常 (“Hei Wu Chang”) and 白无常 (“Bai Wu Chang”). Whether in traditional paintings, effigies, or modern art, these two are always presented shoulder-to-shoulder, gaunt and ghoulish, in exactly the same robes but reversed in colour from each other.
Hei (black) Wu Chang dressed in black and Bai (white) Wu Chang in white. Sometimes the details in their robes would compliment each other perfectly, white highlights on Hei’s robes and black ones on Bai’s. They would also be wearing tall hats with spell tags at the front.
One day the friends were walking near the river, when it started to rain, Fan urged Xie to stay under the bridge and keep out of the rain while he went home to fetch an umbrella. On his way back to Xie, the rain got heavier and heavier, lightening flashed, and thunder struck, turning the rain into a huge storm.
But Fan went on, determined to keep his word. The river burst its banks, sweeping the small figure of Fan under and drowning him in its waves. After the storm, Xie beheld the corpse of his friend and was heart-broken, wishing that he was the one who died instead. He could stand his grief no longer and hanged himself from a beam of the bridge.
When souls of Fan and Xie travelled to the underworld, the lord of this realm, Yen Wang, heard their story, and was moved. He dubbed Fan Hei Wu Chang, and Xie Bai Wu Chang and assigned them to work under the Cheng Huang, the city god. Their task is to catch the wandering souls of the wicked and bring them to justice in the underworld.
Through the ages, folklore has defined the image of the Hei Bai Wu Chang in pop culture by accentuating the characteristics of the once-living persons, evening out their height to give them both the stature that befits grim reapers of the damned, to symbolize the complete harmony between them and eternal reunion of these two
he spell tag on his hat, 天下太平(Peace Under Heaven) is a testimony to his prowess as a hunter of fallen souls, his terrifying appearance is supposed to scare any wrong doers into submission at the mere sight of him.
Bai Wu Chang is sometimes seen wearing a smile, carrying the umbrella that Hei was fetching for him when he drowned. His spell tag “一见生财”(Instant Fortune Upon Sight), reflects the good luck the Wu Chang bring to an area by ridding it of mischief-making evil souls.''
my personal favorite informational writeup that I encountered in regards to Hei Bai Wu Chang, and appealing to the brothers for good fortune:
''These 2 White and Black Brothers enjoy eating Chinese Red Bean Biscuits, drink Stout Beers and smoke the Camel Brand Cigarettes without filters.''
hardcore boys
''His full name is Hei Bai Wu Chang(黑白无常)Black White Wu Chang and they are the soul Hooker or in simplified lead the soul to the underworld and make sure the ghost not harming the mortal.
Wu Chang in English is called the Impermanence and the White Guard which is suppose to pull soul(Soul Eater in origin way)and Black Guard suppose to sever the soul(make your soul and your body separately)
so the white guy can pull the soul. There are also the Bull Head and Horse Face they are also work for the underworld to do the same thing as the Black and White Impermanent(黑白无常)
Bull Head Horse Face(牛头马面),if you interest what weapon or item used by them, here it is
The White Guard use the Taichi Graph Compass and the Black Guard use the Bell of Soul. The Bull Head use a Long Trident and the Horse Head use the BroadSword with long handle.
their only difference is Wu Chang used Magic and Bull Head Horse Face uses Magic-Enchanted-Weapon.''
(in Identity V, White Guard does keep a compass strapped to his hip on his default model- right side; Black Guard keeps his bell on his left hip)
`In folklore, the White Guard's name is Xie Bi'an(謝必安; 谢必安; Xiè Bì'ān) while the Black Guard's name is Fan Wujiu (范無救; 范无救; Fàn Wújiù). They are sometimes referred to as "Generals Fan and Xie" (范謝將軍; 范谢将军; Fàn Xiè Jiāngjūn). "Bi'an" literally means "definitely at peace" while "Wujiu" literally means "cannot be helped".`
''There are many stories of the WU CHANG(无常,google translate says it means "Impermanence",but I think it means nothing in your life is stable,everything could change suddenly) in China,here is one told by my grandma:
Long times ago there were twins,black's name is Wu Jiu(无救,means bad people's soul will not be save,but be punished),white's name is Bi An(必安,means good people's soul will be blessed and have a good afterlife). one day twins was taking a walk in a dry canal,suddenly started raining
Bi An saw a small bridge,he told Wu Jiu to stay below that bridge and wait for he to get an umbrella.
But the world is so unstable,while Bi An buying umbrella,the dry canal began flooding. Wu Jiu doesn't good at swimming,so when Bi An came back,the only thing he sees is just water. He cried for a day,then grabbed that umbrella and jumped into the water. ' '
then to dig into the historical retelling:
''Xie Bi An (謝必安), actual name Xie Zhi An (謝之安), born in Song Dynasty, Tian Sheng 8 Years on the 1st Day of Lunar 11 Month (宋朝天圣八年﹐農曆十一月初一日), hometown in China Fujian Province, Quan Zhou City, Qing Xi County (An Xi was only being addressed after Southern Song Dynasty, which started after AD1127) Jin Gu Town Jin Shan Village (福建省泉州市安溪(清溪)县金谷镇金山村).
According to records, Xie Zhi An was the descendant of the famous General in Eastern Jin Period (東晉) – Duke Xie An (廣惠尊王謝安).
At the age of 4, Zhi An’s father – Mister Xie Hong Ran (謝鴻然), had taught Zhi An on the various Classics & Tang Poems. Besides that, Mister Xie also liked to share with Zhi An on the Stories & Histories of the different Heros of the different Dynasties.
With such influences, since young, Zhi An had an ambitious of becoming a General to assist the needy and also to protect the Country. At the age of 6, Zhi An was able to recite most of the Classics & Poems and also shared the stories with the other children in his Village.
One year, during Lunar New Year period, Mister Xie had brought the whole family to Qing Xi Cheng Huang Temple (清溪城隍廟) – which was built in AD956, The Five Dynasties & Ten Kingdom Period (五代后周显德三年), to pay their respect to the famous City Deity of their hometown. Just as the Xie Family was about to enter into the Temple, an old man stopped them from entering.
Mister Xie was shocked by the old man’s action, but thinking of maybe he was here to beg for some money, so Mister Xie took out a small silver tael and passed it to the old man. Looking at the silver tael, the old man made a grin and accepted it but just before he left, he recited a poem out to Mister Xie;
雖是富貴命難長。(literally: Even though you are rich, but someone’s life is short)
當還宿願之安忙。(literally: You have requested something in order to get a son, so do return your gratitude)
本是天擒下凡生。(literally: Your son is not a normal son, but a Star named Tian Qin whom had reborn here)
三十歲後魂回航。(literally: If nothing is being done, after the age of 30, no one will be able to save him)
Upon hearing the poem, Mister Xie was stunned and suddenly recalled of something that he had forgotten. Mdm Xie was also shocked that why this old man knew about the request that she & Mister Xie had made in front of Qing Xi Cheng Huang (清溪城隍) 10 years ago.
Knowing that this was no longer a “secret”, Mister Xie decided to return his gratitude by contributing a large sum of money for the repairing of the Cheng Huang Temple and also, changed his son’s name from Zhi An to Bi An (必安), hoping that everything will be Smooth, Sound & Safe from then onwards.
At the age of 13, Mister Xie had engaged a private tutor to come to their home to coached Bi An on his study. Within 2 years, Bi An had able to complete all assignments given by the tutor without much mistakes.
The tutor was quite delighted and after 3 years of coaching, the tutor had decided to resign from his post to return back to his hometown for his retirement. On the day of departure, the tutor had encouraged Bi An to sign up for the Imperial Examination as soon as he could and Bi An agreed.
3 months after the tutor left, Mister Xie got a stroke and was not able to take care of the family and so, Bi An had to take over his father’s position to look after the family business. This had somehow delayed in Bi An’s plan on furthering his study in the Imperial Capital.
At the age of 18, Bi An had met up with his long lost childhood friend – Fan Fu En (范福恩), whom was a year junior that him. Due to Fan Fu En’s parent had died in a flood in their hometown, so Fan Fu En had to travel around to sell umbrella & straw-sandals.
Fan Fu En, he was actually the son of a rich trader – Mister Fan Guang (范廣), in their hometown at China Fujian Province, Quan Zhou City, Qing Xi County Guan Qiao Town Shi Lin Village (福建省泉州市安溪(清溪)县官桥镇石林村). Fu En was born a year later than Bi An, on the 8th Day of Lunar 4 Month (宋朝天圣九年﹐農曆四月初八日).
Since youth Fu En was unlike Bi An, whom like to study Classics, instead, he requested his father to engage a Martial Art Master to impart him with kungfu Skills and also, medical skills that he could assist the poor and refugees.
Knowing that his son had such a great ambitious, Mister Fan didn’t reject Fu En’s request and so, Mister Fan had travelled to Jiang Xi Province (江西省) to engage a Martial Art Master – Master Sun Bo Ren (孫伯壬), to coach his son.
After few years of coaching, Fu En had mastered most of the skills that his master had imparted to him and with misfortunate, at the age of 15, a flooding disaster had invaded their village and most of the houses were being swept off by the strong water.
Fu En was somehow fortunate to have saved by a floating log. By the time he was being saved up by a Taoist Priest, Fu En was seriously injured and in coma. Without delaying, the Priest brought Fu En back to the Monastery for curing.
So, from then, the Priest had paid extra attention on coaching Fu En and also, imparted him with some surviving skills such as making of umbrella & straw-sandals, since that Fu En didn’t want to become a Priest.
Even though the Priest had tried to comfort Fu En and talked him through, but due to the disaster that Fu En had met with, Fu En had become emotional & pessimistic.
At the age of 19, after leaving the Monastery, Fu En was in a dilemma of where to head to and so, he decided to travel to Guan Qiao Town to look for his childhood friend – Bi An. And this was how the 2 of them met up after 10 odd years of departing.
On the day of the 2 good friends reunion, Mdm Xie had prepared a superb feast for the 2 of them and knowing that Fu En had encountered such a tragedy, Mdm Xie had took Fu En in and allowing him to stay in their house for as long as Fu En wanted. Fu En was touched and with the suggestion by Bi An; Mister & Mdm Xie accepted Fu En as their foster son.
Maybe due to the care & concern that Fu En had given to, he started to become more optimistic and the forgotten ambitious of him – to assist more needy & poor, had returned back. And also, Fu En had imparted the Martial Art Skills to Bi An; hoping that Bi An could accompany him to fight against all evils in the future.
By reaching the age of 25, Bi An had suggested to Fu En – age of 24, to go for the registration as a Constable in Quan Zhou City Yamen (泉州市府衙) – at the current Zhong Shan Garden area (現今中山公園處). Without further delay, Bi An & Fu En packed their belongings and left the Xie Mansion, heading to Quan Zhou City Yamen for the recruitment.
Using a few days for the travelling, Bi An & Fu En had arrived at Quan Zhou City. To them, everything in the City was new; it was totally different from what they could experience in their own hometown. By using another few days to wander around in the City, they had learnt quite a lot. Soon it was the official day for the reporting for the recruitment.
Upon arriving at the Yamen, Bi An & Fu En had saw quite a number of people queuing for the recruitment. seeing that, both of them started to get worried, worrying whether would they got a chance to be selected.
a scholarly Officer approached at the Magistrate Officer’s Tent to do the name-calling ceremony. Both Bi An & Fu En were excited upon hearing their names being called.
Bi An’s name was being called before Fu En and was being grouped in the 1st Group. Upon completion of the grouping, a short briefing was giving, informing that all participants had to go thru 3 rounds of testing before anyone being selected for the final round of theory test.
Without disappointment, Bi An & Fu En scored high grade in all the test and with the other 6 participants, all the 8 of them were selected to be the new batch of Constables for the Quan Zhou City Yamen.
the other 6 Constables were:
1 – Chen Shao Nian (陳少年) – age 35
2 – Li San (李三) – age 33
3 – Liao Da Gong (廖大恭) – age 32
4 – Huang Bo Long (黃波龍) – age 30
5 – Zou Chun Shu (鄒春樹) – age 29 / Yang Tian Qing 福州古田楊天慶
6 – Jiang He Shui (江河水) – age 29 / Liu Gong Qing 福州古田柳公卿
From then, all of them worked closely together to assist the Magistrate Officer in withholding the peace & harmony of the whole Quan Zhou City.
AD 1058, Jia You Period 3rd Year (宋仁宗嘉祐三年), Qing Xi Cheng Huang had answered to Emperor Ren Zong’s request and Qing Xi Cheng Huang had transformed himself into a Physician to enter into the Imperial Palace to provide treatment to an unknown illness of the Dowager Empress – Mother of Emperor Ren Zong.
After 1 or 2 treatments, the unknown illness of the Dowager Empress (皇太后) was cured and immediately, Emperor Ren Zong wanted to bestow a great wealth to the “Physician”, but as Emperor Ren Zong was about to issue his edict, the “Physician” was gone and only a letter was left on the table.
Upon reading it, Emperor Ren Zong knew that it was the transformation of Qing Xi Cheng Huang and so, Emperor Ren Zong sent an ambassador (封典大臣) to Qing Xi County on the 29th Day of Lunar 6 Month (農曆六月廿九日)
Soon, the ambassador and his troupe had arrived at Qing Xi County. In order to show the gratitude that Qing Xi folks had, the Magistrate Officer had sent the 8 Constables to stand guard at the Ushering Pavilion (迎客亭) to usher the ambassador into the County Central.
As the ambassador walked out from the Sedan, Bi An & Fu En caught his attention, just as Bi An & Fu En were about to pay their respect to the ambassador, the ambassador signal them to come forward and the ambassador started to ask about their background and their educational level.
In order not to disappoint or showing disrespect to the ambassador, both of them answered accordingly without fail on all the questions asked. The ambassador was very satisfied and asked for the permission from the Magistrate Officer, allowing the 2 of them to be the Bodyguard for the whole of this trip.
With a month’s preparation, an auspicious date of 12th Day of Lunar 8 Month (擇吉日為清溪城隍加冕﹐此日為農曆八月十二日) was selected for the “Promoting” of Qing Xi Cheng Huang. On that very day, the ambassador & the troupe arrived at the Temple and upon arrival; a phenomenal sign appeared in front of all of them. The statue of Qing Xi Cheng Huang was smiling with tears dropping
In the resting premises of the ambassador, the ambassador had asked Bi An & Fu En, whether they were interested in getting a post in the Imperial Court?
Upon hearing that, Bi An & Fu En were delighted but knowing that Bi An’s parent was getting old and Mister Xie was suffering from stroke, Bi An did not replied to the ambassador that he actually wanted to seek for an opportunity in the Imperial Court.
By looking at the dilemma reaction of Bi An, Fu En understood his difficulties and so, Fu En replied to the ambassador that Bi An & him needed to take care of the old folks at home and once there were opportunity in the near future, they were sure to travel to the Imperial Capital to look for the ambassador for the recommendation.
Knowing that the 2 of them were out of Filial Piety, the ambassador did not persuade further in asking them to follow him back and just as the ambassador dismissed them, he gave each of them a Gold Pendant (金令牌) with a Chinese character of Huo (火) aka Fire & Ling (令) aka Command, carved on it.
In case of any issue that the 2 of them wanted to seek for his assistance, they could just bring the Pendant to the Imperial Capital & the ambassador’s Mansion, the ambassador would try his best to assist them.
With gratitude and a sincere thanks, the 2 of them left the resting premises of the ambassador and headed home.
D1064, Emperor Ying Zong Zhi Ping Period 1st Year (宋英宗治平元年), on the 9th Lunar Month (農曆九月), Imperial Court had released news out to the whole China that, the Imperial Court was about to recruit Military Scholars (北宋朝廷重新恩開武舉). The news had arrived in Qing Xi County and without delay, the Magistrate Officer asked Bi An & Fu En to register for this recruitment.
Due to Bi An’s parent had pass-on a year ago, so both of them had no further worries and so, upon the encouragement, Bi An & Fu En packed their belongings and ready to leave their hometown for the Imperial Capital, which located at Bian Liang Kai Feng (北宋京都汴梁開封).
Before Bi An & Fu En set-off, the other 6 Constables had gathered at Qing Xi Cheng Huang Temple to send them off. As Bi An & Fu En were bidding farewell with all of them, Chen Shao Nian had suggested that, why not all the 8 of them sworn in front of Cheng Huang to become sworn brothers.
Upon agreement from all the 8, they exchanged their Date of Births and dripped blood to become sworn brothers with the witnessing of Qing Xi Cheng Huang.
((METAL AS HELL YO))
With the completion of the Ceremony, Bi An & Fu En left the Temple and headed towards Bian Liang.
Upon reaching the junction of the Guan Qiao Town, heavy rain started to pour and realising that either of them had brought out any umbrella, Bi An suggested he dashed back to the County Central to get an umbrella. Fu En agreed and suggested that he would wait for Bi An under the Bridge at the Guan Qiao Town Junction.
After Bi An left, the rain started to get heavier. Noticing that the rain was too heavy that made the travelling impossible, Bi An had to hide himself at one of the run-down shrine outside the County Gate, hoping that rain would stopped soon.
just as Bi An was about to have a short rest, he saw a group of folks running furiously towards the County Gate, shouting that flooding had occurred at the Guan Qiao Town Junction. Upon hearing that, Bi An was shocked, realising that Fu En was waiting for him under the Bridge at Guan Qiao Town Junction.
Without hesitation, Bi An dashed towards the Junction, despite the heavy rain and the danger of the flood.
[ At the Junction.
Rain still pouring heavily.
Water rushing.
Level of flood increasing.
But, no sight of Fu En could be seen. ]
Bi An was scared & worried. He tried combing the whole area, hoping that Fu En was just somewhere around. But to his disappointment, Fu En was not at anywhere that Bi An could find.
[ Back to the Junction.
Rain started to stop.
Trees toppled.
Broken branches were everywhere.
Flooding started to subside. ]
Half a mile away from the Bridge, Bi An saw something familiar. With a dash, Bi An ran towards the spot where he thought was Fu En standing waiting for him. But upon arrival, to his horror, Fu En was laying there with face smashed onto a stone in the middle of the stream.
Looking at the motionless body, blood trickling out from the forehead of Fu En, Bi An collapsed totally. He cried out loud, shouting Fu En’s name, apologising to him for leaving him alone under the Bridge and at the end, allowing the flooding to wash him off from the Bridge.
Soon, Bi An stopped crying, he carried Fu En’s body to the shore and placed him gently on the stone-ground. By looking at Fu En once more, Bi An loosened his clothes belt, throwing over the tree besides Fu En’s body, tying a knot and with a fearless action, Bi An hanged himself on the tree.
With Bi An’s killing of himself and at the time of the folks searched their way to the Junction, a strong gust of wind swept across the area. At that moment, some people said that the Souls of Bi An & Fu En were being summoned off from their bodies
Xie Bi An & Fan Wu Jiu are not Nether World Beings neither are they the Guards of Hell. Both of them are considered Mortal Realm Deities, which are able to wander around in the Mortal Realm regardless Day or Night (並非民間所謠傳之陰神/陰將﹐二將屬民間神祇﹐可穿梭日夜之間)
Xie Bi An & Fan Wu Jiu are not Hei Bai Wu Chang (謝范二將並非黑白無常)
Hei Bai Wu Chang only appear in Buddhist Terms which Taoism does not have them. Hei Bai Wu Chang are Spirits that assist in commanding souls to maintain order.
in Chinese Deities System, Wu Chang was being given to Xie & Fan only in late Qing Dynasty, when there was a Cultural-cross-revolution.
To be more specific, these 4 characters actually got the meaning of;

Hei Bai - to know the Truth & Reality, never fall into the grey-gap
Wu Chang - everything is not certain until you find the Truth
So the worship of the Hei Bai Wu Chang is a product of the syncretic nature of folk religion, which incorporates anything from Buddhist to Taoist practices. And the habit of people naming them Xie and Fan has its roots in an integration of cultural beliefs that occurred many, many years afterwards.
It's going to take Hei Bai Wu Chang devotees a long, long time to dissociate them from Xie and Fan, as they are referred to by those names practically everywhere (although, of course, some Hei Bai Wu Chang in certain temples have been noted to bear surnames other than Xie and Fan).''
there are other retellings of the story that are drastically different, and don't involve Black Guard dying in a flood, but since they're spoken of less via sources I can sniff out rn, and don't bear any resemblance to the Identity V iteration of Wu Chang, I won't include them
though speaking of, after reading up on everything, I'm loving seeing the gaps between tradition and Identity V
most of the timelines align perfectly, and considering the era when Xie and Fan actually lived, it makes sense that Black and White have drastically different clothes than the other hunters or survivors
they're absolutely not 1900s era dress, and they're torn and restitched/tattered on the default model
the bulk of the story around their deaths seems p much the same: they're definitively brothers (not sworn or adopted), and probably id twins given their matching appearance
in Identity V, they visit the Nantai Bridge, White runs home to get an umbrella for them while Black waits diligently under the bridge; an unexpectedly intense downpour triggers a flash flood, and Black stays waiting until he physically can't leave and drowns
White returns, finds out his brother died, but in this version doesn't immediately kill himself and instead lives, carrying his brother's umbrella with him everywhere
refusing to let go of it or leave it behind
and as time went on his personality shifted: his modest and gentle nature turned volatile and angry
eventually returning to the bridge, leaving his brother's umbrella on the shore where he died, and then 'disappearing' according to the locals (spoilers: his soul is in the umbrella, he knowingly laid it to rest beforehand, and the legends all reiterate that he kills himself, so we know how it really panned out)
whether that was a result of Black possessing him and wanting to not be alone, or White not wanting to be without him or just both is unclear
but that's where IDV canon rolls forward ahead in time: the umbrella gets taken in by a merchant whose house quickly becomes haunted
'in the middle of the night, the sounds of men sighing fill the hall' wow lads
everyone believed it was White possessing the artifact, not realizing it was also his brother, and summoned a Taoist Priest to purify the umbrella
things quieted down again, but chaos briefly hit on a government-wide scale later, and the umbrella went missing
where it, you know, turned up hundreds of years later in the mansion when the Emma is exploring the garden area
we know Hei Bai Wu Chang is charged with punishing wicked souls and bringing them to the underworld, and can either be benevolent or cruel in that respect, and looking back on the Wu Chang event Netease put in the game for his release (where you had to track down the 'countless trapped souls' that had escaped from his umbrella) the Identity V version is
doing the same
which, if that's true, and the survivors are all summoned to the manor specifically for punishment or atonement or something along those lines, is real damn interesting
and ok it's....so late and I'm tired so I'm gonna stop reading and paging through this cool shit and head to bed
https://images.plurk.com/1tjomWx3luWiav6sllYALY.jpg and just leave this here
I TOLD YOU TO PING ME
I can't believe I read this ENTIRE PLURK but I'm with you in being utterly fascinated
I WAS GONNA IN THE MORNING since otherwise I’d just be asleep lmao
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