[fate/apocrypha spoilers] So now that my Apocrypha liveplurk is over a thousand comments I'm going to make a new one for episodes 17 on.
I wanted to get some tags done before watching more, but I can prepare food while watching better than tag while watching.
WELL THAT IMAGE MURDERED ME IN COLD BLOOD
EXCELLENT MY BODYCOUNT BEGINS.
But yeah with 9 episodes remaining I could see myself hitting 2000 comments easy and that's probably bad.
yeah yosie wow
I MEAN FRAN'S DEAD SO I MIGHT NOT TALK QUITE AS MUCH
Jeanne had her happy juice this morning.
Coming out late, running along, being playful...like not that these are things she can't do but when she's doing Ruler stuff she's been usually a lot more serious.
Is this a moment of "oh wait it's episode 17 we better get our canon ship going."
As I watch the opening, I'm realizing I didn't think about this last episode: Jack attacking the Black Faction suggests she wants the grail. Does she want it for her wish or because it will help keep her and Reika alive due to the whole "can't supply mana" thing.
I'm still on the question of "could Jack and Reika had a good ending without everyone else dying if she didn't need mana," which seems to be leaning no.
Sieg why are you walking so far behind Jeanne?
Is Jeanne's big excitement over Sieg worrying about Leticia related to her thoughts that the feelings are Leticia and going AH I CAN JUST SHIP THEM AND NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS
YUP THAT APPEARS TO BE EXPLICITLY WHAT SHE'S DOING.
Did the original Master of Assassin really take that good of notes on the people he was killing to summon Jack?
Was he using multiple people or just one? I thought it was the former in my vague knowledge of this series pre-watching it, but if they can guess who it is, it's probably that she was the only one or else they'd have multiple suspects.
I tend to sympathize with characters with a sad backstory more often than not, even if it's Cool Motive Still Murder. At least, I do as long as they either 1) feel regret over it and/or 2) don't make any excuses. If they're like I DID IT BUT IT'S BECAUSE MY LIFE WAS HARD then I'm less sympathetic, at least in fiction.
So yeah. Would have been nice if Reika and Jack were at a spot they could have lived without hurting other people, but that's not who they were.
Oh no. I see you. I see Jack in her dress sitting on a piano bench while Reika plays a soft piece on the piano, Jack watching her intently. I know you're preparing to tear out my heart. It's what Jack would want to do anyway.
AU where Jack and Reika are happy but also not murdering every person ever.
Because I feel even worse for all the people they slaughtered, but also for them.
Ah, that's why she was on her happy juice. Like basically the only time to give Sieg a chance to be, like. Happy or something.
Chiron saying that humans like to spend their lives together out of weakness, loneliness, and happiness. One of these things is not like the others.....
Honestly, I don't 100% get when species in fiction supposedly lack emotions but are able to make decisions. If you have a preference over what to do, isn't that partially an emotion??
I can definitely see muted or less broad emotions, but none I get a little pedantic about.
That they're not giving us a flashback of kid Jeanne playing in the dirt is a crime against nature.
Jeanne is almost literally too good for this sinful earth.
...Has no one ever told Jeanne she's doing her best what is wrong with everyone around her (I mean, I guess she didn't have the opportunity to really talk to anyone about her concerns before)
I can't believe Achilles is capable of sitting and thinking
Atalanta keeping an eye on Trifas - I was starting to wonder how she got involved in there.
Achilles: BULLSHIT AMAKUSA WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, JEANNE??
(re: not hating the people who killed him)
Welp, there's some readable emotion in Amakusa now.
Semiramis: still annoyed at every other Servant of Red.
EVERY SERVANT IS SO TOUCHY
LIKE HE CALLED YOU CUTE, SEMIRAMIS, BUT HAVE YOU NOT SEEN ACHILLES BEFORE HE'S OUTWARDLY EXTREMELY LIGHTHEARTED ABOUT 90% OF EVERYTHING
This reminds me of Chiron reacting to being called illogical by Avicebron and he was like WHAT YOU SAY
Sieg, Jeanne already said she didn't hate the people who killed her - though, granted, it's an unexpected thing so I guess there'd be a couple of questions.
It's interesting how often the idea that only people living in the current era should be the ones to change things in that era shows up. It's not like it's a strange idea - it's kind of the Prime Directive but for time travel - but it's interesting because it feels like, at least in FGO, it's so widely accepted.
Sure, there are definitely those who don't agree (coughAmakusacough), but it's agreed upon more often than not even though Heroic Spirits run the gamut of every other opinion.
I don't really have a point to this observation because that requires a great deal more ability to read into a text than I have.
I suppose Jeanne probably heard about "paying with your body" from the soldiers in her life. It makes sense that I immediately saw the funny double-meaning.
Astolfo is so bored just hanging around.
I'm glad they had Chiron watching for mist, because I bet Sieg and Jeanne aren't going to be able to communicate what's going on here.
...........wait, does Sieg have something prepared for the mist? Because homunculi are clearly not immune.
Ah, he's got one of those hankies.
But if they were planning this, couldn't they have, like...put it on a string or something???
A clever trap, this.
HE TOOK OFF JACK'S LEG WITH AN ARROW
GOSHDARN
WOW THIS HURTS
you know. like an arrow to the chest.
Reika and Jack aren't good people. And they're a danger to everyone around them. But they clearly care about each other so I am sad now.
Given I know Atalanta is not pleased when things happen to Jack, I did not expect her to be the one to kill Jack's mom.
Welp. This is about to get creepy.
Anyway, the end of this episode was Rude.
I've got a paper to read before tomorrow, so I should set aside the idea of watching the next episode EVEN THOUGH I WANNA.
I've been sitting on this cliffhanger for too long. It's time for episode 18!
In the preview images Atalanta does not look happy.
Oh boy, we get to see Jack go "okay, time for things to get creepy" again in the opening here.
At least they didn't repeat the sad death scene, too.
you shouldn't have done that
well this particular setup is laser-focused to make atalanta feel like crap
RE:the living define the era, not the dead
I'd say that's actually central to FGO's entire theme and message
Yeah, that's where I've seen it the most.
given the whoel first arc is a confrontation of ideology between the player character (a normalish modern human) and a long dead insane king
But I had no idea if that was just because that's 90% of what I've seen of Fate.
Or whether it was a common theme.
Apocrypha is the only series I think spells that out as an official stated thing through Jeanne but thematically, it does ring true for a lot of the other branches too.
It's part of why Saber's wish in Zero feels wrong, it's an underlying part of why Gilgamesh's plan is so awful and arrogant in Stay Night
I guess they just decided to go more explicit with it as time went on.
Personally I think it goes hand in hand with Sanzang's bit she mentions in Camelot (which continues to feel so inspired to me) about how to the pov of a Heroic Spirit, being summoned as a Servant feels like such a cosmic impossibility that every Servant awakens with an idea that their "ressurection" like this will never happen again
uh oh, where's atalanta's bow
Ah, with this flashback, it looks like they've decided to laser-focus attack me in my "any moment that a character changes their hairstyle, I put a hand to my heart."
Which does fit for how most Servants act but god damn does that fuck me up in relation to people who either die horribly (Vlad) or die immediately and pointlessly without getting to do very much (... idk foes Apocrypha have one? Spartacus I guess, you could argue Fran too)
(there's much better examples in branches of Stay Night or Zero)
(Fran I'd say is less that she died immediately and pointlessly without accomplishing much and more that it might feel that way from her point of view, because...well, actually, I guess that depends on whether she'd know that her lightning revived Sieg or not.)
(Since if I can trust the random translation of her material books [press x to doubt], her will is supposed to be in the lightning from Blasted Tree, so maybe she knows she saved one person?? Even if she wouldn't have any idea he'd go on to do much in the war or even survive past Mordred killing him again.)
(...Though even then I don't know if she'd know that Mordred survived.)
(Anyway, Spartacus is probably the most straightforward example, though he seemed to be having a good time in the end nonetheless.)
Anyway, that statement from Sanzang is cool but also kind of heartbreaking.
Especially with the types you mentioned, but also really any of them. Particularly the ones who make close relationships.
... I mean wait for it RE:Fran
there is a payoff later than you are
Oh, I know. But she doesn't know.
That's what I meant by "from her point of view."
...I don't know the details maybe she does know.
I just know that her reviving thing was important in the final battle or something.
But maybe there's some awareness in there??? I don't know.
Shame on how disappointed Atalanta will become when she meets FGO Artemis.
hahaha yeah
Well. Atalanta is not having a good time here.
FGO Artemis (even if tbh I'm okay enough with her and with some headcanon fagiggles here and there it tracks okay for me) kinda hangs over the proceedings for Atalanta in Apocrypha like
"oh. sorry girl"
The flashback hair brushee looks a lot like Medea Lily, but I can't make sense of where that would be in a timeline where this meeting would take place.
At the very least we can agree that poor Atalanta and her inability for it to track okay with her.
WOW THAT CARRIAGE RUNNING OVER THAT WOMAN WAS JUST UNNECESSARY.
Well, this is a bleak place for Sieg to get shown. It'd be horrifying for most people anyway, but for someone who's been alive for a couple of weeks, it's going to be even worse.
...what happened to Jeanne's clothes.
Atalanta was with Jason's crew so presumably she'd have met Medea then
Oh, she would have, and maybe Medea would still have been that young, but there's a bunch of children running around as well.
The purple-haired girl was saying that Atalanta is kind to her and to the children.
And since they were in a tent, I expect it would have to be after Medea had left her home.
Maybe the Argonauts stopped off somewhere to camp for a while before abandoning Medea and thus Atalanta and Medea got to meet some children.
I don't know the story of the journey of the Argonauts well enough to know.
Also while Sieg is unprepared for this, Jeanne is super prepared for this. Still probably sucks a lot, though.
H...i....Reika......
Welp. That's rough.
Renewed calls for an AU where Reika and Jack are happy.
(But also not killing people.)
Jeanne and/or Astolfo, please find Sieg, the boy needs some support.
Jeanne is so good.
Jack is so weird because on the one hand she's a literal child and sympathetic and cute on the other hand she's a literal fetus monster which is one of the darkest/goofiest things Fate has ever done, and on the other other hand why the fuck is she in a thong she's like 7
admittedly, she's like 7 by way of a million billion kids between the ages of fetus and 7 so it's a bit amalgamated but still
OKAY THE THONG THING I HAVE NO EXPLANATION FOR.
But for the other two things I was just coming back here to comment that Jeanne is probably right that the best she can do is to lay Jack to rest.
oh she 100% is
Jack is...well, she's kind of a lot of children. And she is a victim. And if there was a way to save her, it should be taken.
But even if she's a victim, she can't be let to go around murdering people.
... and tbh given the way Jeanne does it here (or at least what the dialogue/narration says) it's actally kinda weird Jack in FGO?
It doesn't feel good at all and I have nothing but sympathy for her. But she does have to be stopped.
because iirc the dialogue implies it's not so much Jeanne killed/ascended this Jack which is summoned here (again, ghost clones) but that she exorcizes the wraith amalgamation of the children as a concept
IE, this iteration/intepritation of "Jack the Ripper" should no longer exist even in the Throne of Heroes
Unless I misinterpretted it
I've seen someone theorize that Jack can be summoned in FGO because human history was incinerated that this act was also temporarily incinerated and that it won't work once history is restored, but, like. I have no idea if that holds up past the first arc even if it does right now (and since I'm avoiding spoilers I wouldn't want to know).
I guess you also can't say it's because it's a different timeline from what little I understand about EMIYA.
Fate is weird.
And I don't know enough about it to theorize myself.
rofl well time in fate is weird because time is dimensions
sort of
but the bigger issue is that the Throne of Heroes is outside of time and space, so in theory the Throne applies to all fate universes the same
The core spirits, that is, again going back to ghost-clones for the individual incarnations
In theory.
YEAH EVERYTHING FATE IS IN THEORY
Fate is full of holes if you look at it very long. Most of the time, it's not really that important unless you really like theorizing, but this one is a weirdly big hole.
(Jeanne is an almost terrifyingly strong person.)
(I love her.)
but if you wanna get super nerdy and technical, the throne of heroes is outside of time and space because it's basically a barracks for the will of the world to recruit potential counter guardians from
and the spirits are just being cloned/borrowed to make Servants
Fgo is like whose line
The points and the rules don’t matter
it's true
Yeah, the real reasoning is "because they wanted to give the fans a chance to play with her" but meta reasons are generally unsatisfying.
Supposedly jack’s thong comes from her wearing cast off clothes from prostitutes
PLEASE GET MORE CASTOFFS.
Which I am only mentioning because it’s a shit excuse for a creepy design
It sure is.
The whole Atalante and Jeanne conflict is one of the weakest parts of the story to me
look. she breathes through her skin
Because not only was Atalante originally on board for killing jack but from here on out she just goes On and On about how Jeanne ‘murdered those children’
When that is literally not even what happened
As they were all dead to begin with and willingly accepted moving on
I think at the point where I'm at right now (the first child just walked up to Jeanne to ask whether she was going to kill them), the conflict is quite strong. I was coming back here to comment about how scene is really painful. And I don't blame Atalanta for being so worked up about it in this moment.
It would be different if apocrypha showed them struggling or not wanting to be exorcised
At this particular point I'm at, I think everything Atalanta has said is a very fair thing to feel at this point.
But as a setup for a longterm conflict, yeah, it's pretty weak.
It is one of the weakest subplots and Atalante doesn't have a leg to stand on with it but I kinda took it as her just having a psychotic break about if her wish is even possible in the first place with Jeanne basically being her scapegoat to have something to foist her anguish on
Particularly if they do end up accepting it.
You kind of have to take it from Charles's point, but even with that explanation, it just upgrades from a nonsensical subplot to a weak subplot.
I think what makes it even worse is that (spoilers) atalante even admits to being wrong
It’s just frustrating bc I think it’s a conflict that could have gone somewhere, but it needed editing..........
Even just having the children in Jack not wanting to go despite how awful things are for them in this existence would have gone a long way towards making it an interesting conflict.
Then it'd be between "do you put them out of their misery or do you accept their wish to remain alive even in the pain" which is a hard decision rather than "do you put them out of their misery at their request or do you make them live in pain against their own wishes to avoid having to face killing them."
(I haven't mentioned about how cutting just showing one of the children with a painted face is, because I don't really have anything to add other than it's really awful that it's an accurate thing, but I am going to mention that having her be the first one to approach Jeanne is making this scene double painful.)
Now this outfit on Jack (where she's basically wearing an undershirt and a shirt that's slightly too big for her and barely reaches her thighs) looks like she's wearing castoffs. It would still be bad but it would be less bad than her current outfit.
That this is an improvement on her Servant outfit speaks volumes.
I mean, I guess Jack says that they don't want to die (I don't know if I should be using a plural they or a singular she for Jack) before we go into "this is probably just Jeanne hearing it," but not enough to base a longer term conflict on.
(Again, at the moment, I think it's been fine. But I knew even before Charles and Silvie's comments about how this goes into a longterm hatred by Atalanta and all, so I know that it's not going to stay fine.)
Atalanta looks like she's basically magically corrupted (but it's still a weak setup for the conflict).
Of course they make the corrupt bishop in Jeanne's flashback ugly.
I think if you're going to ask Sieg to not lose faith in humans, you're going to have to send him to a therapist first, Jeanne.
It's a touching moment, but get these people some therapy okay I guess it's hard to find someone right now but even so.
Jeanne is reacting to Chiron coming in like he walked in on them kissing or something.
Like, I know it was a very intimate moment. It could easily be that she forgot about the rest of the world as she shared her pain and comforted Sieg's pain, and she might be startled to remember OH YEAH THEY'RE HERE TOO.
But the blush and all feels pretty clumsy to me.
idk, I guess the past couple of episodes feel like some cosmic editor was like OH YEAH WE'RE ON A TIME CRUNCH TO MAKE SURE WE GET THESE TWO TOGETHER BEFORE THE END OF THE WAR.
(I mean, yes)
Not that I have objections to the ship but the execution is feeling clumsy.
I am still amused by Chiron smiling knowingly, even if the thing he's smiling knowingly about seems so clumsy in execution.
LESS CLUMSY IN EXECUTION THAN THE SETUP FOR THIS CONFLICT IT SEEMS BUT STILL.
"Is something wrong?" asks Jeanne, like she didn't just have a heart-to-heart about the nature of good and evil and the capacity for both in all humankind with someone who's a couple of weeks old.
Like, I can accept that, as a part of developing this ship (clumsily), they're starting to show Jeanne being able to let down her guard around Sieg to contrast with how she's basically always on the job around everyone else.
But it's kind of weird to me that she ends this episode acting as lighthearted as she started the episode. I may get the idea being that she's trying to lift Sieg's spirits back up, but it seems like they're having her go a little too far too fast in terms of that??
Shakespeare no the fourth wall is about to shatter.
(Again, Astolfo is hitting the beats of a romantic interest for Sieg as we watch him do the traditional "beating on someone's chest with their fists" followed by hanging off Sieg like they're about to kiss.)
THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS LET'S SHOW ATALANTA EXPRESSING HER GRIEF LIKE SHE'S FROM A HORROR MOVIE WITH TWISTED NECK AND WIDE EYES.
Anyway, I'd love to keep watching, but I'm going to 1) do laundry and 2) do the tags that were unfortunate enough to fall victim to my low sleep over the past few days and maybe 3) take a nap so I have the energy to do either. I'm suddenly feeling really sleepy so 3 is seeming more likely.
Thanks for joining me again!
...It said there was a new comment but I don't see it. Hope plurk didn't eat something.
Because I do enjoy getting to hear y'all's thoughts, even if a lot of the time I don't have much to add as a not-very-analytical anime consumer.
Ta. 
So none of those three things have happened and I'm probably abandoning the first and last, but while I'm eating: episode 19!
Wh...ere...did they get...a plane.....
I guess it's not the most ridiculous thing since they're rich castle people who have been preparing for a long time organized by a guy who was willing to go into the military so isn't completely technologically inept, but.
........though it makes me laugh to consider that since they're having a golem pilot, they probably had Avicebron make the pilot golem.
(Astolfo's riding skill is probably high enough to pilot it better than a golem but also I don't really blame them for not wanting to put him in the pilot seat.)
"If only I could remember my Noble Phantasm's true name" YEAH I'D BE STARTLED BY HEARING ASTOLFO SAY THIS, TOO
In the opening I bet that Semiramis is furious that she's made to stand next to Shakespeare.
I guess with the true name, that grimoire must power up, because it sure wasn't effective against ALL magic when he tried to fight Semiramis earlier.
Even with the once every 28 days drawback, that is a strong NP.
I'd like this conversation between siblings a lot better if I didn't have the "FIORE'S DELICATE FEMININE FEELINGS MAKE HER UNFIT TO LEAD" scene hanging over my head. (I know that's not what was said and probably wasn't what was intended. It's a (I hope) comedic exaggeration, but it did have some level of that feeling in it.)
"If you're not an asshole, you can't be a mage." Which I say as a joke but is kind of what seems to be the general consensus of the mage world.
Which isn't a criticism. It's an interesting design choice.
god I hate that plot decision. it's just stupid.
"I'm just a useless girl." "I think you're better off that way." WELP.
LIKE WHERE ARE THE WAYS IN WHICH CAULES IS AN ASSHOLE, HUH
HIS SISTER'S LIFE IS EXPLICITLY MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THAN REACHING THE ROOT.
THAT'S LITERALLY HIS WISH.
Which makes this definitely seem more like he's using the idea as cover for fulfilling his wish, which is to keep his sister safe.
(I realize the translation could easily be off in terms of just how much it sounds like my exaggeration. This is a fansub. But I think the idea is in the scene regardless.)
Ah yes, I heard about the scene where Jeanne screams because she sees Astolfo's dick. It was mercifully short, but also extremely out of nowhere?
Like where are the scenes showing that Astolfo regularly just wanders around naked to back this up?
I'm not saying that it's out of character for him, but it's just like...weird and sudden and pointless.
oh I 200% disagree with that read on fiore thing that was like my favorite subplot.
THIS SERIOUS MUSIC WHEN THEY SEE MORDRED CHOWING DOWN IN A RESTAURANT.
because she makes the only healthy choice of any character in any fat series by choosing to not be a mage
I thought that was awesome
Oh, I wouldn't say that it's not a healthy choice.
And, frankly, more people should make it.
But they had full freedom in deciding who the characters were.
They decided the one who couldn't go through with it because she couldn't kill people was a girl. They decided that the one who could go through with it was a boy.
also re the dick scene wasn't that implied to be the girl Jeanne is possessing and not her proper i forget
I'm not saying this is, like, unforgivable or anything.
Like, they sure have female magi in other stuff. Like Rin is a strong mage who goes through with it anyway.
But, like. The surviving Yggdmillennias are two men and one woman. The one who is too fragile about death is the woman. The two men go on to continue being mages, as far as I can tell.
So, like. The idea divorced from any gender is an interesting one. Because it's really the healthy choice.
But the girl in the wheelchair is the one who backs out due to not being able to make the tough decisions, and her brother who is fully able-bodied is the one who carries on.
Like I said, I doubt this was intentional. But it soured it for me.
I mean yes? but rin is at her most unhealthy as a full bore mage. whatever anyone else thinks of the routes where she gets trained by zalretch. i am not oblivious to the gender coding here and I suppose it could have been better to have a man punk out
but that also means we then have man is assumed leader over more capable girl until then
my perspective is likely flawed here though
Oh, it probably is super unhealthy and a bad decision on Rin's part, but I just meant it as saying it as a counterexample to my own point.
I'm certainly not saying you're wrong or that I'm wrong. I'm just saying that this is how it felt to me.
I would have preferred the reverse, but I'm not, like, a trained gender theorist or anything.
Maybe the other way would have been worse.
idk.
Anyway, I love this showdown in the restaurant. I was going to mention yet again how Astolfo keeps hitting the beats of a secondary romantic interest, but my favourite part of this scene is how this restaurant scene hits the beats for a dramatic confrontation except for the fact that Mordred keeps eating more.
fair. see to me this subplot coupled with fates usual narrative of the events of the series not needing to be the most important thing in your life makes fiore bu far the strongest human character in the series
but then that perepactive is informed to me by zero and stay night (and being a man of course)
I agree with you that this is the better, stronger decision as an overview of things, even if I still stand by my thoughts of hating the subplot and its framing.
My knowledge of Zero and Stay Night is pretty loose, but I sure think that mages are assholes and people shouldn't do the stuff they do to be mages.
(The ceremony to transfer over the mage crest, which I'm assuming what is happening here, looked like Chiron was about to engage in human sacrifice when I paused to comment here and I could just see feet draped in white on the table in front of him with candles all around.)
(For a moment I thought Chiron was about to just go off the deep end and do something weird to a couple of homunculi.)
Caules you keep ending up in these situations where you're using some magic and you nearly kill yourself instead.
...Actually I can't remember a time Caules uses magic in this series where he doesn't either bleed or scream. Though that might be because those are more memorable.
fades out, sees someone walking across a field in black pants
"I can't believe Caules is dead and they're holding his funeral."
"I can't believe Caules is dead and they're holding his funeral."
Now, Caules, kill the dog in your mind and fulfill your destiny as a mage (I'm kidding).
CAULES JUST FUCKING LIE DOWN LIKE THE horse DOCTOR TELLS YOU
CAULES YOU BIG SILLY FOOL (I still love him, though)
OH NO I'M SO READY FOR THE CONTINUATION OF THIS SHOWDOWN AT THE RESTAURANT.
I LOVE THE IDEA OF THIS MEETING AS MORDRED CONTINUES TO JUST EAT WHILE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ROOM TAKES THIS SERIOUSLY 
"[Humans] aren't worth lifting a finger to protect." ~ Mordred, known tough guy
"I won't use my Noble Phantasm in a place where I might hurt civilians." ~ surely someone else
"I won't use my Noble Phantasm in a place where I might hurt civilians." ~ surely someone else
"Attacking innocent people to replenish my mana is also forbidden." ~ who knows, probably not Mordred.
"Mordred has contradictory beliefs." More hot takes from the master of literary analysis, Yosie.
Mordred actually asking Sieg his opinion, listening to him seriously, and giving actually decent advice. There's her soft spot for homunculi showing up again.
The way she notes that it's her responsibility the way she acts is one of those moments where you can almost think that Mordred is ever slightly mature.
Also she looks nearly tsundere in the way she answers that she wants to be a good king.
Mordred did you make sure the bill was paid before you walked out
Or did you try to stick Sieg and Astolfo with the bill.
More moments of clumsy (not bad, just clumsy) romance subplot development: I don't really feel like it should be flustering for Jeanne to answer why it matters to her that she hopes Sieg regains his love for humanity.
It makes a little more sense when I think about it carefully - Astolfo means that she's not, like, going up to Kairi like "SO HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT HUMANS HUH" and is mostly a neutral party.
So there is some extent she is treating Sieg specially and that it comes at least partially from the same place as her feelings. So it's not like it doesn't make sense.
But my first thought was that Jeanne would generally prefer people to love humans, so it shouldn't be odd that Jeanne would want someone to regain his love for humanity.
Before I get going, Yosie, would you mind if I chip in my two cents re: Fiore in more detail?
I don't mind! Actually, I got called away by Vyc's book club anyway, so I'm pausing watching.
I'm just going to finish my thought on the Jeanne fluster before I pause it anyway.
ok, cool-- I figured I'd ask since that part of the conversation has closed and I didn't really want to beat a dead horse
Which is to say it particularly makes sense in my mind because I end up thinking that...okay, Sieg's reasoning skills are above a typical child, but I still go "two weeks means kid." Which. Clearly Jeanne does not if they're going to be doing couple stuff.
And the other part of the finishing thought is that Astolfo is playing the romantic rival role to the hilt.
But anyway, I don't mind you bringing back to an old part of a conversation, especially when you weren't here at the time of the conversation. I know that feel. 
I do appreciate you checking in first, though.
So, I'd like to preface this with the fact that, unlike other Fate properties, I went into Apocrypha knowing that certain Servants showed up and it was a sort of war of the roses thing but none of the major plot beats.
That being said, once Fiore and Caules were introduced, I "knew" where that plot line was going to go.
I love that description of The War of the Roses.
I think it was the scene where Fiore was talking about the magic circuits in her legs-- how magic could restore her ability to walk, but she'd lose her ability to be a mage.
I thought to myself, ah, she's going to give up her magic and pass it on to the brother character.
I cannot tell you how many times I've consumed media where I've been presented with a pair of characters. Siblings, students, peers, whatever. If there's a girl and she's better at something than a boy, it's likely there will come a time in the story where she cedes her authority or acknowledges that the male character has surpassed her.
it was in the bloody LEGO MOVIE
More than that, it was absolutely galling to hear a character described as being "too kind" or "too softhearted" to pursue a career in magecraft, when up until that point she had:
- engaged in various duels, including a 1vs1 against the most seasoned/battle prepared mages in the story
- survived several attacks on her life
- was leading the family, including lord knows how many brutally injured homunculi
Fiore isn't "too soft" to lead their family. The narrative demonstrated that, like Chiron, she's tactics-minded and has a level head. When attacked by Jack, she fought back.
More than that, I don't like what that says about the current state of magecraft or the potential future of magecraft-- but I think that's an issue I have with Fate in general, especially Fate/Zero.
Meanwhile, Caules talks about how his sister's safety is more important to him than reaching the root, the (pun intended) holy grail of magecraft.
And it's the idea that to be a "true" mage, one must be selfish, greedy, and coldhearted. You have to be willing to "make sacrifices". You can't "save everyone". Therefore, it's fine to create living creatures just to use them as magical batteries. Or take your adopted daughter and torture her and calling that passing down your magecraft.
Why can't Fiore be a mage with a working sense of empathy? What does Caules, narratively speaking, demonstrate within the confines of Fate/Apocrypha's story that shows he is both more willing to kill and would be a better leader of their family?
I would be more okay with them going with the "mages are assholes" road if it weren't for the fact that Caules keeps on going in the direction of magecraft.
Why is a single instance of a child crying over a dead pet being trotted out in front of me as the single, definitive piece of proof that Fiore doesn't have what it takes to be a mage?
If they both came to the conclusion "ONLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T EVER CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE CAN BE MAGES LET'S GET OUT OF THIS LIFE," that might have more of a point.
I don't like the "composed, talented female character gets surpassed by bhe comparatively clumsy male character" plotlines to begin with, but everything about Fiore's story is just so frustrating to me. It doesn't jive to me.
anyway so that's the tl;dr of why I hate that plot point 
thanks fate/apocrypha, you fuckin messy disaster that I'm still actually pretty fond of
Something about Fiore also being in a wheelchair made me double not jiving about this plotline. It may objectively be the healthier choice, but it's framed like someone being too weak to become a mage and that doubles down on the "ehhhh" factor for me.
Basically, I agree with Silvie on all these points. (Again, not saying you're wrong, Charles, but this is how I see it.)
yeah, that's not great either. I didn't touch on that mostly cos I'm not confident in my ability to express why it doesn't sit well with me
Yeah, I would probably trip up if I tried to dig into it, but the two comments I have on it are 1) it adds to my MMMMM feeling about the subplot and 2) THAT SCENE IN THE SECOND OP WITH FIORE WATCHING BIRDS FLYING BY THE WINDOW FEELS WAY TOO ON THE NOSE.
While I listen to the actor commentary on the Fellowship of the Ring (a lot of these actors are either dorks or almost terrifyingly good or both), I present to you: Astolfo as the secondary romantic interest continuing to hit all his marks effortlessly:
All right. Food cooking up for the next meal (my eating and sleeping schedules have not been ideal lately), let's fire back up the romantic comedy I mean Fate/Apocrypha.
WHY DOES ASTOLFO HAVE A LIP ANIME FANG
OH. JEANNE IS SAYING WHAT WE'RE ALL (READ: WHAT I AM) THINKING
I've been half-joking, half-serious about Astolfo hitting all the romantic beats and not-at-all-joking, entirely-serious thinking about how the ideal end for me would be a poly triad for these three, but I didn't actually expect them to toe the line of almost actually suggesting anything queer was going on here as they did.
I still feel like Astolfo more naturally falls into the stereotypical romantic stuff than Jeanne by far, but that was in general a cute scene between Sieg and Jeanne.
I don't know what the ending to "are you..." was supposed to be. I jokingly filled in "are you hitting on me," because I can see the framework they're building for the ship, but also I'm looking at both this and the stuff Astolfo said that made Jeanne ask if he fancied Sieg, and I'm shouting HAVE NONE OF YOU EVER HEARD OF FRIENDSHIP??
(In Jeanne asking Astolfo's case, it's probably intended as a projection of what she's thinking about herself, and with Sieg I actually don't know what the end of his question was. It could have just been "are you sure?")
Also I forgot to mention that Astolfo is a good rival, in going "good luck, even if you shouldn't expect help from me!"
Okay, I can at least appreciate the way Fiore is like "what are you talking about of course I'm going to the final battle, you're the one who needs being protected."
CAULES REST FOR ONCE IN THIS SECOND HALF OF THE ANIME though of course I am weak for Fran even being mentioned at all, there was a little flutter of my heart.
OH IT'S THE PRE-FINAL BATTLE EVENT OF ANY TALES GAME.
TIME FOR FIORE TO ROLL AROUND THE CASTLE TALKING TO ALL HER PARTY MEMBERS.
(I know it's going to be just major relationships pre-established so any more such scenes will not be between Fiore and someone else except MAYBE Gordes, but I never realized until this moment how much I just want to see Fiore and Mordred have a chat about something. Just anything.)
I mean I could be wrong, that's a fair statement. Truth exists, even if perception of media stuff is pretty subjective. Though I will add that not being a mage doesn't necessarily not being in the magic life, it just means not managing a house and a crest and the cultural cues
Fiore, starting the conversation with Chiron: You realized I'm not suitable to be a mage.
Me: IMMEDIATELY TENSES UP IN WORRY
Me: IMMEDIATELY TENSES UP IN WORRY
So I'd always assumed she just then became a (admittedly weaker, being sans crest) magic practictioner
post-series.
That's still ceding the leadership position of being the head of a house.
That's correct.
That's honestly more what concerns me about it than whether she has magic at all or not.
But we can agree to disagree.
Chiron: I knew you weren't suitable to be a mage because you treated me as a comrade rather than a weapon.
Me: wavy flashback to the scene in the garden where Caules talked to Berserker
Me: wavy flashback to the scene in the garden where Caules talked to Berserker
Granted, that could be unrelated. I'm always having flashbacks to scenes with Fran in them.
Counter for "number of times Fran is mentioned in this plurk that starts seven episodes after she dies" goes up.
Chiron is kissing Fiore's hand as he swears on one knee to protect her, and all I can think of is I WANT A CHIRON.
LIKE IN REAL LIFE NOT IN TWO YEARS TIME IN MY FGO GAME
after the scene we turn to Caules collapsing in pain after the realization hits him that his sister is getting some
"I DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW MY SISTER WAS INTO HORSECOCK" is what I am guessing the next line to read once I actually start the scene.
I try not to swear too much, so forgive me for the following.
FUCK YOU, SHO
DON'T YOU LOOK AT ME INNOCENT LIKE THAT AS YOU HAVE A FLOWER PETAL COME IN THE WINDOW TO LAND ON THE HAND OF THE SUFFERING CAULES
DON'T TRY TO PRETEND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING
I SEE YOU AND YOU'RE IN SUCH TROUBLE CHILD
I WON'T ALLOW THIS
NO!!
DON'T DO THIS TO ME APOCRYPHA I'M WARNING YOU
HE'S TALKING TO THE FLOWER PETAL AND PROMISING TO SEE IT THROUGH TO THE END
RUDE AND NOT ALLOWED 
All right, continuing with this staid and serious literary analysis.
I realize you already used a mirror to show Jeanne trying to talk to Leticia but I'm sure you could have found a different way to do that than she's just happening to be in the bath.
It wasn't the worst ever but it was kind of "hmm, okay, you decided to do that."
WAIT KAIRI HAS A BIPLANE OF HIS OWN
okay biplane is wrong, but when I see tiny one person thing I think biplane.
even though the name clearly means two wings.
Oh no, Mordred is asking for advice about being a good king and isn't even yelling when Kairi makes a comment on it.
She's really been thinking about it since the restaurant scene, hasn't she?
I want to say so much about this scene but it's honestly just THIS IS GOOD repeated like the hate on Kiyohime's profile.
THERE'S STILL THE AUTOMATIC "I DON'T ADORE HIM" FROM MORDRED but Kairi is let continue and give such good dad advice.
And then Mordred says thank you which is probably a virtually unique experience in the world.
"Finally," says Mordred when told it will be the final battle SHE WAS READY TO HAVE THE FINAL BATTLE IN EPISODE 2.
ACTUALLY PROBABLY EPISODE 1 EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS IN EPISODE 1 FOR LIKE FIVE SECONDS.
And now they're bonding over planning how to kill Semiramis.
Mordred didn't even need to specify.
As much as I keep saying about how Sieg is way better than a lot of people complain give him credit for, I do agree that I would have been over the moon to see a full 26 episodes of Kairi and Mordred.
OH NO SHE'S GOING TO GRAFFITI THE PLANE
TOO MUCH MATURITY AND SERIOUSNESS IN A MORDRED SCENE, SHE HAS TO BE RIDICULOUS NOW.
OH NO THEY'RE NOT SHOWING THE NAME MORDRED IS GIVING IT YET.
THIS IS A WORSE CLIFFHANGER THAN THE JACK SCENE.
Achilles: Ane-san, have you been drinking??
Achilles maybe you should have finished your sentence (though it probably wouldn't have mattered after he already said that he didn't think her wish would work).
choo choo all aboard the "saving all the children is DUMB but saving all humanity is RADICAL" train (except I don't think Achilles thinks much of the save humanity idea, either).
KARNA'S "WRAPPING UP THE RELATIONSHIP STRINGS FROM THE PREVIOUS EPISODES BEFORE THE FINAL BATTLE SCENE" IS LITERALLY JUST HIM STANDING IN THE ROOM WITH THE NONENTITY RED MASTERS AND STARING AT A WALL
AND SHAKESPEARE'S IS JUST WITH THE SUN AFTER HE PULLED ANOTHER ALL-NIGHTER WRITING DOWN THE STORY OF THIS SERIES
AH GOOD I GOT THE NAME OF THE PLANE BEFORE THE END
hey why does semiramis not get her wrap-up scene with amakusa OH WELL WHO CARES MORDRED WROTE ON A PLANE I'M MORE INTERESTED IN THAT
Her spraypaint handwriting is way better than I would have guessed.
It's super stealthy as always, Mordred, bright red paint with her name (well, title) on it.
All right. I've got three great tags that have been left sitting for four days now as I groggily go through my day. I WANNA GET TO AT LEAST ONE BEFORE I PASS OUT (this used to be my normal rate of playing but I'm in danger of falling back to The Old Days).
Thanks for tuning in, y'all. See you next time for episode 20 (stated so that I don't have to scroll up to double check again).
oh wait I should clear out my AP before maintenance AND THEN FIRE ZE MISSILES WRITE MY TAGS
I don't have a screenshot on hand, but iirc fiore very literally says that the magic circuits in her legs are what's preventing her from being healed, she then passes the crest to caules, and then in the closing shots we see her going through some sort of physical therapy, implying that she entirely gives up on magecraft
in the beginning she says she doesn't want to give up on her ambition to be a mage, which is why she hasn't pursued such therapy before
so I gotta disagree with you, wholeheartedly and completely
"load up the episode that includes the garden scene with fran and caules in looking for a screenshot about this?" twist my arm why don't you
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be here, not rewinding to rewatch the garden scene (UGH IT REALLY ENDS ON THE SAME SWIRLING FLOWERS EFFECT USED IN THAT MOMENT BETWEEN CAULES AND THE FLOWER PETAL HOW DARE)
It's been nearly a week, I'm tired, and also in the middle of making food, so this will be extra slow and may not finish episode 20 tonight, but it's THE APOCRYPHA SHOW.
Not long ago, leaving Gordes in charge would be a very WHAT ARE YOU DOING move.
Also gee, it looks like Fiore can still lead well enough to organize who's going where huh how weird I thought her feelings got in the way
Hairclip Homunculus: don't worry he's just a tsundere.
Oh, her name's Toole. Nice.
A touching farewell.
The opening starts off mostly with people staring solemnly/sadly at things, with even Mordred getting with the program to start with...and then there's Rider "Defying Gravity And Loving It" Achilles and Caster "I'm A Shit" Shakespeare.
Semiramis has holoscreens now? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon more like Hanging Gardens of Babylon 5.
"I'm flying, Jack!" ~ Amakusa, probably
THEY RESERVED AN ENTIRE AIRPORT THIS IS RIDICULOUS
SAME, JEANNE (as she stops and stares)
THEY HAVE ROBOTS FROM STAR WARS EXCEPT MADE OUT OF CLAY
"let's confirm the whole operation" brings out a sheet of paper with one big circle, four small marks, and a single arrow
we're going complex with this, I guess.
Uh.
Wait.
Wasn't the point of Fiore not going because she wouldn't make the hard decisions when it came to whether to attack before Astolfo remembered his book name or after
why are they now doing the attack...when astolfo remembers the book name
THIS INCREASINGLY MAKES LESS SENSE TO ME.
I know that it's not the reason why Jeanne is looking at Sieg discontentedly, but it sure makes it look like "aww man Astolfo gets to have Sieg hugging him from behind this time I wish I had a cool ride."
Next time I come to a Holy Grail War, I'm going to get a ROCKING HOLY MOTORBIKE AND THEN WE'LL SEE WHO'S HOT STUFF
Oh, so you can give out the Command Seal power boost on a delay, huh?
Chiron and Caules agree to make sure that one of them is around Fiore at all times to protect her with their mighty dicks. (what me be bitter no never)
I mean, if you believe cassie rumour, Chiron at least has a mighty dick.
in a better time it would be good to give Sieg the talk of JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE SAVED BY A HERO DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO DO THIS YOU ARE STILL A KID but it's hard to balance that and letting the dude have a choice in his only three years of life.
Sieg: It looked like she wanted to say something else.
Astolfo: If she's too much of a pansy to say it then I'm going to take advantage of TV Trope's First Feminine Person Wins.
Sieg: What?
Astolfo: What? hanging off arm
Astolfo: If she's too much of a pansy to say it then I'm going to take advantage of TV Trope's First Feminine Person Wins.
Sieg: What?
Astolfo: What? hanging off arm
Alas, the usual place I steal this anime from isn't working and my replacement keeps crashing. Oh well, it'll just be even slower.
OH NO ASTOLFO'S SHAKING HAND
......THAT PLANE LOOKS A LOT BIGGER LEAVING THE AIRPORT
Okay, frozen at 8:20. I'll pick this back up another time as I'm going to have to get up and down a lot right now.
Sorry for the short session after a week absence!
SUDDENLY AMAKUSA IS TALKING AT ME so I guess I'm back.
You know, Amakusa is doing pretty well for himself when he's up against people like Achilles and Mordred when his story is basically
Amakusa: We'll win because god's on our side!
Narrator: It turns out he was wrong.
Amakusa: We'll win because god's on our side!
Narrator: It turns out he was wrong.
...I was going to joke that Shakespeare's speech is totally the thing that's said right before the subordinate gets killed by the leader AND THEN IT LOOKS LIKE NO THAT'S TOTALLY IT
OKAY THAT WASN'T A DEATH SENTENCE BUT A DO NOT WRITE MY STORY AS A TRAGEDY
It's so serious but I'm laughing.
For once in this show, Shakespeare Is Not Into It
Semiramis and Shirou have like the most understated romance I've ever seen and I'm digging it.
Ah yes, the Fate staple of "beneath these priest robes there's so much muscle."
I hope they explain sometime why it is that Shirou gets to access the Grail early.
This seems like the spot where they might, but so far I'm confuzzled.
It's also possible that I'll have to read the light novel for that.
He did at least seem to have to use powers to get in there early.
Also it seems like Shakespeare's writing was also required.
And Semiramis is like "well now it's not."
"Remember that part where Yosie thought someone might off Shakespeare? Let's give that a round two."
It's time for the conversation of the DESPAIR IS COOL crowd.
Shakespeare if you don't want to die perhaps you shouldn't keep talking after Semiramis is clearly annoyed by what you're talking about (but that would take sense).
Anyway, I'm really enjoying Semiramis. I have no clue why she likes Amakusa, but otherwise I'm really down with her. And I'm still down with her having her crush because they left it so undramatic that I don't mind it being there.
Saved by the bell.
Ahhhhh, that's why the plane taking off looked too big.
A fleet of, presumably, clay androids.
Like I realize Atalanta's already in a bad mood right now but she just looks like "OH MY GOD THIS IS GOING TO BE SUCH A PAIN IN THE BUTT."
JEANNE DID GET A SWEET RIDE
AN ENTIRE PLANE
I WAS JUST KIDDING JEANNE
Good thing Atalanta waited until the guy with Command Seals was out of there to drop her FUCK Y'ALL ALL I CARE ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS BASHING IN JEANNE'S FACE.
Achilles: I DON'T KNOW OR LIKE WHAT IS GOING ON BUT SURE I'LL GO WITH WHATEVER KEEPS ATALANTA ALIVE
Semiramis: DAMMIT EVERYONE IN THIS GROUP HAS THEIR OWN AGENDAS WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LISTEN TO MEEEEEE
too bad she doesn't know that her magical battle against Achilles is the worst possible setup.
..........I'm realizing that the Black Faction has had zero communication with Mordred and Kairi after they planned to cooperate.
Just like the two of them like it.
SEMIRAMIS LOOKS SO DONE WITH EVERYTHING
Wow, it's even a 3D hologram. Fancy.
GOOD THING THEY BROUGHT BACKUP PLANES
So, in this timeline, whichever airline handles Romania is going bankrupt, right?
I love that they translated Chiron speaking to Achilles as "ENOUGH BULLSHIT."
This attack on Jeanne would be so dramatic if I believed in the conflict between Atalanta and Jeanne at all.
BALLER CURVE SHOT JEANNE
"Where are you aiming?!" ~ Achilles, not realizing this is the traditional line before someone gets completely owned by an unexpected plan with projectile weapons
SHARE WITH THE CLASS, CHIRON (except I have a vague idea what Amakusa's plan is so I'm not actually impatient).
I also enjoy that Achilles's line was translated here as Future Sight as though Chiron were using a bloody Pokémon move.
Anyway, this ends episode 20.
Or, uh, no, there's like a minute and a half after the credits RESUMING
Man, Fran would LOVE Heaven's Feel if it's got this many flowers in it.
Wishing for the manifestation of every human soul...hope the Masters remaining will be okay!!
Okay, time to be strong and not add another potato to this set of home fries. Thanks for joining me, everyone. <3
Back to my usual streaming thing for episode 21!
I'm less than halfway done of the episodes I had remaining here and I've passed 450 comments. Looks like my 2000 comments prediction was pretty spot on, even with Fran checking out.
Thanks Chiron for sharing with the class.
I feel like the characters' and audience's understanding of this plan for salvation being built up a little more in advance would add a bit more weight to this conversation between Achilles and Chiron about "saving from war" vs "arrogance of trying to rule over destiny" thing.
Achilles: Where's your Master? It would be troublesome if she shows up suddenly.
Chiron: Don't worry, we made sure to remove her from the plot as much as we could.
Chiron: Don't worry, we made sure to remove her from the plot as much as we could.
(That's slightly unfair because she is still part of the attacking force but it is the truth of my heart.)
Astolfo: Tonight, I'm special, even though we're acting like we didn't wait the three days.
Like, don't get me wrong. The Hanging Gardens are a neat setup. BUT LIKE THIS MARVEL-ESQUE FLYING BASE WITH A FANTASY SKIN CRACKS ME UP A BIT??
WITH LASERS????
I do like the line from Astolfo about being afraid because of the new moon since he's got whatever that is that makes him so much more lighthearted and silly through the moon but that he won't retreat. A good rider.
lancer just casually standing on the giant fantasy satellite cannon arms.
I think I can see where one of Sieg's two transformations remaining is coming in (actually I'm guessing he'll do the third and face the consequences by the end).
JETPACK LANCER
Astolfo is showing that FGO apparently takes place only at the full moon (I'm sorry that you weren't better, FGO Astolfo).
OH NO MORDRED IS THE ONE RIDING THIS PLANE
LIKE IT MAKES SENSE BUT I'M ALSO AMAZED SHE'S MANAGED TO NOT CAUSE THE SAME DESTRUCTION AS WHEN SHE WAS DRIVING THE CAR
PROBABLY IF THERE WAS GROUND IN THE AIR SHE'D DO IT
Yeah, I wish the anime had centred more around Mordred and Kairi. So it goes.
As someone who mostly loves side characters, though, I'm used to this.
sieg where are you going to stand to fight
I don't think siegfried had a jetpack
Given how OP Karna is noted to be every time he appears anywhere, I frankly don't know how Sieg is gonna win this one.
INSTABALMUNG
I guess that's one way to make it onto the Hanging Gardens (as Sieg gets smashed into them by Karna).
...Astolfo is ramming your face into stone repeatedly really the best way to disable the defences???? (It may be I dunno)
Yeah, I figured Semiramis would be feeling pretty Done with this anti-magic person slamming all of her big trump card's big weapons down.
........ow
........................uh oh. I sense a heroic sacrifice coming on.
Uh oh.
Semiramis is Done With Everything right now and Astolfo is the closest target.
Though I get the feeling she might regret making a speech at "this little girl" given we know Mordred is in the area and I'm aware that Mordred gets to go battle Semiramis.
But also I wouldn't be surprised if Astolfo bites it here???
SLAM THE PLANE INTO THE WOMAN WHO SMELLS BAD
yeah I saw this one coming
GOOD THING SEMIRAMIS DIDN'T JUST TRY TO DODGE OR ELSE ASTOLFO MIGHT HAVE KICKED IT BECAUSE OF MORDRED INSTEAD (like was about to happen before Mordred got a series of Berserkers to the face)
okay going to grab laundry and then I'll be back
Fights on a plane. (Hi I'm back)
Gosh these people with their multiple Noble Phantasms are cheating. Fran only has the one that she dies using (I mean, technically, her mace is as much a Noble Phantasm as Achilles's chariot, but come on, I gotta find some way to talk about Fran unnecessarily or this wouldn't be a Yosie Apocrypha liveblog).
Chiron and Achilles: the fight of seeming to miss with your projectile weapon in order to do something flashy.
...............okay I didn't see that one coming. Where are we now?
ACHILLES LISTEN TO WHAT THE WISH IS BEFORE YOU SWEAR BY YOUR DAD
I'm sure this fan translation I'm using because I'm too cheap to use Netflix has a lot of mistakes, but I have to admit I derive a great deal of amusement from some of their translation choices.
Very much 
official subs vs fansubs
official subs vs fansubs
MANLY MEN HAVING A MANLY WRESTLE BETWEEN MANLY TEACHER AND MANLY STUDENT
DOUBLE GUT PUNCH, TCH YOU'RE GOOD
kicks like a horse
"you've grown so much Achilles" waits to think this until the point where Achilles is getting his face smashed in
okay that was a hard punch
OKAY THAT WAS A COOL USE OF THE WHOLE SETUP FOR CHIRON TO USE HIS NOBLE PHANTASM WITH THE ADVANCE COMMAND SEAL
a constellation as a Noble Phantasm is pretty neat.
the last of Chiron's disciples is a pretty cool title to carry on, Fiore (I mean, he could have been talking about Achilles but I'm pretty sure it was Fiore he was talking to and I'm sticking with that interpretation because I like it)
Has Atalanta been just running at Jeanne and getting knocked back over and over again during that manly fistfighting
LIKE I ALREADY HAVE TROUBLE TAKING THIS CONFLICT BETWEEN ATALANTA AND JEANNE SERIOUSLY BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO REPEATEDLY MAKE THE "RULER, YOU'RE A CHILD MURDERED / YES I AM A CHILD MURDERED" MISTAKE IT'S GOING TO BE EVEN HARDER
Man, the conflict between Atalanta and Jeanne could have been really interesting if they'd stuck the landing on the conflict of ideals.
I suspect it's a result of trying to tilt the scale in Jeanne's favour a little too hard.
Oh well.
Astolfo: Okay what the fuck why is a plane here OKAY WHY IS ACHILLES HERE
I wonder which of his NPs Achilles is going to give up? Maybe his chariot to let Astolfo have a ride now that his is down??? FIND OUT NEXT TIME IN EPISODE 22 OR POSSIBLY A LATER ONE
I don't intend to finish episode 22 tonight. I should go to bed soon. But while I eat the last of my food of the day, part 1 shall begin.
Last time on Angry Cats (wow okay I'm told I'll be able to see where all of the budget for the animation went during one of the sequences that comes up, but clearly THIS ISN'T WHERE)
Shhhh Atalanta Alter, if you stop talking about the reasons why you're doing this that I might be able to appreciate the idea of Atalanta going ham on Jeanne in the universe where this conflict was written in a way I found convincing.
insert joke here about how Atalanta class changing to Berserker gives me room for AUs where Fran class changes to Saber and gets an Noble Phantasm that doesn't kill her
From what scraps I know of the ending here, I know Fran dying is an important part of the world being saved, but shhh let me dream.
oops is this where seal 2 goes for sieg
.....................................wait did I forget something when did Caules get here
I don't think I'm on the wrong episode
AND WHERE'S FIORE IN THIS CASE
I guess they landed in the confusion and Fiore fucked off to get something done
"But that person isn't your Master anymore." Sieg there are more reasons to want to rescue someone than that (but I know this makes the dialogue flow into Karna providing his reasoning better)
Caules same thing
Anyway, clever negotiation, Caules. It's a reasonable trade given what Karna wants (how long have you been watching to know this, Caules)
"This is a promise from warrior to warrior that we must fulfill even if it costs us our lives" ...like from what I remember it, it was a kind of "ah, it'd be nice to get to fight to the finish" "yeah, it would be" but either I'm misremembering or it was much more dramatic in Karna's head.
He remembers it with shoujo sparkles and shounen tears.
at any moment I expect Karna or Sieg to say something like IT'S A PROMISE BETWEEN MEN or something shounen like that.
This may turn out to be more MANLY PRIDE than even the fistfight between Chiron and Achilles.
pour one out for the conflict between Jeanne and Atalanta
With a bit of editing, the conflict could have been very interesting, since Jack did many evil things that makes them dangerous to all around them, but she's also a child. But, alas, didn't work for me.
The visuals are great, setting aside that I don't think a lot of the budget went into actually making them clean.
The visuals as a metaphor for how I feel about this conflict: broad strokes and intended design are neat, but the execution isn't clean.
we interrupt karna and sieg's shounen anime to bring you this horror movie starring atalanta as the monster
Achilles: GREEKS STICK TOGETHER!!!
Atalanta is being very considerate to stop her berserk attacking to allow Achilles his slow and dramatic entrance.
I see Achilles is looking at Atalanta and thinking about Patroclus when he's thinking how he's careless about the most important things.
Achilles is suddenly VERY TIRED.
.........Wow, Semiramis got rammed by a plane and still found time to be set up on her throne greeting Jeanne calmly when she arrives like a proper final boss.
For someone who hates Shakespeare so much, she is committed to proper dramatics.
I really haven't had a lot to say about this episode, huh. I guess there's not really much to say about a bunch of back-to-back fights.
I wonder if anyone's ever going to be able to pin down Semiramis over a reason other than "a Servant must be useful to their Master." I also don't believe that the "I'll get to be queen of the new world" is her real reason, either, even if I doubt she'd turn it down.
Yeah, I guess a perfect world wouldn't have a queen.
So, uh, I guess that's basically a nuclear explosion on the Hanging Gardens in the Karna vs. Siegfried battle.
Hope you're having fun being aware of that while trying to talk to Jeanne about whether or not you're lying, Semiramis.
like did Astolfo really have to disable the defences here or could they just have had Sieg and Karna keep fighting for a while
A HERO KILLS WITH THEIR EYES!!!
like this is pretty and all, but I can't help but repeatedly think IS SIEGFRIED EVEN BACKED UP WITH GALVANISM ON STEROIDS REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE THIS STRONG WHY ISN'T HE A 5-STAR
OH HEY ASTOLFO
nice choice, Achilles.
I...don't really get what's going on but it's a cool sequence anyway.
Oh, he trapped Karna's attack in its own world bubble?
I guess??
More "this has neat visual design but looks kind of messy"
Ah, the sword Astolfo gave him. Nice move.
Okay, since I'm at 17 minutes, I'll finish up.
Glad Karna is cool with Astolfo coming in.
the eye lasers were my favorite part of the fight
"Everyone who is a part of the future we tried to protect is an irreplaceable treasure." Karna, you're a cool dude.
as I had LITERALLY FORGOTTEN ABOUT THEM
THE EYE LASERS JUST KIND OF HAPPENED WITHOUT COMMENT
IF I DIDN'T REMEMBER THE "A HERO KILLS WITH HIS EYES" LINE WHEN I SAW IT I WOULD HAVE BEEN SO CONFUSED
I probably would be more into Sieg using "I want to see Jeanne" as his way to make it through to the end of the battle if I hadn't been not into him going I HAVE TO DO THIS TO PROTECT JEANNE
basically what happened with sieg and karna is that ... karna had to disable his op defenses to fully access his true op offense
seigfried would not have been able to beat that
but since astolfo can use other noble phantasams he was able to accept achilles' shield
which like isn't a terrible thing? but it was a little "sieg she's like super powerful you don't have to worry that much."
But yeah, without that ultimate offence getting swallowed up, Siegfried would have been in too deep of trouble to make it through that.
Thank goodness for jack of all trades Astolfo
"Ruler must be headed to annihilate our Caster" ...is Shakespeare really the one Jeanne's off to find??
OH WAIT RIGHT I'VE HEARD ABOUT THIS THAT SHAKESPEARE'S NP GETS ANOTHER DAY IN THE SUN
FINGERS CROSSED WE GET TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE FROM THE OUTSIDE BECAUSE I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT SOMEONE WHO SAW FRAN WOULD HAVE SEEN SINCE THERE'S THAT WOODEN DOLL IN THE END SUGGESTING SOMETHING HAPPENED IN THE REAL WORLD
Astolfo, you did well being serious for the last moments of Karna. Good lines there.
GUYS IF YOU PUT HER CROTCH RIGHT IN THE CAMERA I CAN'T IGNORE THAT YOU DECIDED TO MAKE ATALANTA ALTER JUST WEAR PANTIES
PLEASE STOP I WANNA ENJOY THIS FIGHT BETWEEN HER AND ACHILLES
no. look at the undies.
I DON'T WANNA
though apparently it won't be a problem for long because the achilles and atalanta fight is apparently like five seconds total
"Rider, what was I supposed to do...?" get an editor for the scene that set up this conflict
(Anyone who actually enjoyed the setup for the Atalanta/Jeanne conflict is going to be sick of my repeated comments on it not working for me.)
pour one out for atalanta's and achilles's storylines, which could have been great with more time and care, but even stretching into the credits they weren't given enough time for me to properly appreciate the ideas they were going for
JEANNE REALLY DIDN'T EXPECT TO NOT HAVE A BOSS FIGHT HERE
"I'm waiting for some guests of mine." WHERE HAVE KAIRI AND MORDRED BEEN THIS WHOLE TIME
SUDDENLY SHAKESPEARE IS CONSIDERED THREATENING (FOR ONCE) AND USEFUL (FOR THE FIRST TIME BY SEMIRAMIS EVER)
anyway, I didn't have a lot to say this time (60 comments later). I think this was the first episode that I really felt the way that Apocrypha was rushed for the number of characters versus the number of episodes.
But, you know. Given that I've heard that complaint dozens of times when grabbing stuff out of the fandom, it's pretty good to make it to episode 22 before really feeling "eh."
I did love Astolfo being the cavalry, though, but that's just because I like Astolfo and also I love an underdog.
Thanks for reading. <3
I'm going to try to not just sit and watch the whole episode in one sitting because I have stuff I absolutely need to get done today, but while I'm having....breakfast..... (I haven't been sleeping well) it's time for Episode 23!
OH NO MORE OF RAPIDVIDEO IS DOWN GOSH DARN IT the other streaming services I have available are less convenient (then why don't you get netflix) shhhhhh
Sisigou and Mordred are some relaxed about wandering through this place given the last thing we saw of them was CRASHING A PLANE DIRECTLY INTO A MAGICAL ASSASSIN.
I want to know what happened between that point and Semiramis sitting boredly on her throne and these two wandering around going "it's big...." "yeah and the decoration is crap...."
I HATE THAT THERE IS A BUTTON RIGHT NEXT TO THE VOLUME CONTROLS ON THIS COMPUTER TO PUT MY COMPUTER TO SLEEP
THEY'RE IN A DARK BLUE COLOUR ON BLACK KEYS, TOO, SO IT'S HARD TO DISTINGUISH THEM
but I got to go back so that I didn't miss Mordred's cute laugh. That's a surprisingly cute laugh.
Yeah I see why people complain that Mordred and Sisigou should have been the main characters. No offence, Sieg, you're fine but you're not Mordred.
THERE'S LIKE 27 DEATH FLAGS A SECOND IN THIS CONVERSATION BUT IT'S SO CUTE
MORDRED. GETTING TO BE A KID?? GETTING TO NOT JUST BE A KNIGHT AND TRAITOR??? YES MORE SISIGOU IS SUCH A GOOD DAD.
HELL AND SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS AND ADVICE AND AHHHHH THIS IS GOOD I WANT MORE OF THIS FOREVER
I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY OTHER THAN HOW GOOD THAT SCENE IS AS THEY BASICALLY GO THROUGH EVERY POSSIBLE SISIGOU AND MORDRED EMOTIONAL BEAT IN QUICK SUCCESSION.
Ah yes, the opening reminded me suddenly of how much I hate the way Fiore's storyline was written.
I'm saved from complaining too much about Apocrypha by having gotten sick to death of people complaining about Apocrypha when looking up information on the FGO Apocrypha event, but I sure wish that I could get creative control over it and nudge a few things around.
More Mordred and Sisigou, a few adjustments to Atalanta's storyline, and if they're going to do Fiore's storyline as is make Caules a woman.
Anyway, onto watching the anime as it is, which is as a whole something I like.
THEY"RE REALLY NOT GOING TO ADDRESS WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE PLANE CRASH ARE THEY
Anyway I'm down to watching Mordred and Semiramis exchanging barbs.
WHAT GOOD REACTION TIMES YOU TWO
MORDRED JUST KICKING KAIRI IN THE CHEST AND HIM THROWING THE SPYBALL IN AT THE LAST SECOND.
Oh. A room that blocks command spells. Y I K E S.
In a poison that goes straight through even Mordred Y I K E S
I get the feeling this part of the liveblog is going to get pretty quiet. Much like the other battle scenes. But the others made me react like "okay, this is kind of fun," whereas this one I'm already like "I LOVE THIS."
I suspect it's just because I like both characters so much and I buy into the conflict so well (the other characters are all fine, but like Chiron and Achilles's manly fistfight just made me laugh and I keep mentioning that I don't quite buy Atalanta's storyline here).
THE BIRTH OF SURFING MORDRED WOW OKAY HERE'S WHERE IT STARTED I GUESS
HOLY CRAP SEMIRAMIS IS ENJOYING TOYING WITH MORDRED. CHAINING HER UP JUST MOMENTS AWAY FROM STABBING HER AND HER FACE IS LOVING IT
.......wait where did the ocean and jörmungandr come from (I had to google the spelling because I thought the u and the a were swapped and now that I know the accent might as well put it in here)
SEMIRAMIS DIDN'T EXPECT THE SABER BEAM
ALWAYS EXPECT THE SABER BEAM
.....................owwwwwwwwww that looks painful for mordred
I love Semiramis as a villain.
UGH THIS INTERNAL MOMENT WITH MORDRED...I DON'T REALLY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT OTHER THAN I'M DRAWN SO IN also tiny mordred is cute too bad about everything that happened to her
So thanks to reading palkia's threads, I've gotten a preview of what Mordred's real wish is after her Apocrypha development, so I kind of knew how this would turn out.
But her saying it was still a REALLY COOL MOMENT.
BETWEEN THAT AND ASKING KAIRI FOR THE SUPPORT TO WIN THIS FIGHT THAT SHE WANTS TO WIN EVEN IF SHE DIES AND KAIRI IMMEDIATELY BACKING HER UP, I GOT CHILLS.
I LOVE THESE TWO.
Also Semiramis realized immediately when her plan fell through. I really like her as a villain even though I frankly...don't get why she's so ride or die for Amakusa (but, again, since they put the romance on the back burner so much, I don't feel obligated to get given the answer as much as I might usually?).
KAIRI RAN IN IMMEDIATELY TO THE ROOM OF DEATH POISON BECAUSE MORDRED NEEDED HIS HELP. WHAT A GOOD DAD.
........wait what's this needle thing
okay that's what the big snake is
it was in that moment that semiramis knew....she fucked up.
UGH I'M GONNA DIE
I watched the last moments between Mordred and Kairi without comments because I couldn't think of anything to say about it other than it was good.
UGH THEY'RE BOTH SO GOOD. I LOVE SISIGOU. I LOVE MORDRED (since I @'d cassie she may be able to come and see why her "someone's having bad taste" sense went off in the middle of the night).
I guess this is the place to stop and get stuff done to return later (14:27) but like how am I supposed to return now that I know I don't get more of this.
This half of the episode was my fave.
All right, off I go to actually do stuff other than suffer over this scene.
It's a tossup whether I'll be cleaning my apartment or finishing off my inbox.
Digging through the manga for Fran icons (I'm thinking about changing over to the quality of the manga scans for Fran's icons) and while there's not going to be enough commentary for its own plurk since I'm just skimming through:
The face of OH SHIT HE'S HOT.
The face of OH SHIT HE'S HOT.
"I'm discovering something new about myself tonight."
CHAPTER 3 IS SO SHORT
.....hi Martha. I did not expect this one.
It's cold in France
That's fair.
I'd ask then about the ridiculously plunging neckline, but since this is shot from the back I can pretend that doesn't exist in this Ruler version.
(Even skimming in a different medium, I still feel bad for the homunculi.)
...did this translator really use bunnies for the o's in Roche's speech here? I wonder what that was supposed to signify. A cutesy mode of speech in Japanese???
hey it's the bronze-link manipulator CE (maybe I should have made a new commentary plurk for this if I keep doing this).
No offence to Achilles, but I can never get enough of Atalanta having almost zero reaction to him - neither pleased or annoyed by his consideration. It's just "okay, sure, you do that."
Especially when Achilles gets surprised by it.
NO ONE CAN DEAL WITH ASTOLFO EVEN IF THEY LIKE HIM.