Aki
2018-04-30T18:16:15.000Z
moral quandry- is it okay to ship an asexual aromantic character?
latest #132
Aki
2018-04-30T18:16:45.000Z
my problem is this. "word of god" from the author says the character is asexual aromantic
Aki
2018-04-30T18:17:08.000Z
or specifically, that had she KNOWN about asexual aromantics being a thing, she would have written the character that way.
Aki
2018-04-30T18:17:27.000Z
so its somewhat of a 'retcon' they i don't really like puitting it that way
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Aki
2018-04-30T18:18:10.000Z
however, in the book this character has clear moments of crushing on another character, and i think it's cute and i'd like to ship them/find fanwork of them as a couple.
Aki
2018-04-30T18:19:12.000Z
but that feels like im forcing my view of happiness onto a character or something and i know its a fictional character and all but
Aki
2018-04-30T18:19:50.000Z
basically is it okay to ship a character who is stated to have an asexual orientation. and why or why not, that's my question and i'd like to hear other peoples opinions
r💀ll them b💀nes
2018-04-30T18:26:07.000Z
The moral quandary is about not wanting to erase representation by sticking the character in the same emotional formula that other characters would better fit, right?
that stuff is complicated
but I feel like going after an aroace character for shipping seems like barking up the wrong tree
its really the same as shipping a lesbian character with a man
it seems like a double standard if you would object to shipping explicitly gay characters in a het relationship but would ship in a traditional sense with an aroace character
pazu
2018-04-30T18:53:58.000Z
I think it's okay to ship anything so long as you're not insisting it's canon (against all evidence) or you're not rationalizing it in a offensive way (such as dismissing asexuality as a thing)
r💀ll them b💀nes
2018-04-30T18:56:37.000Z
It's trickier with a word of god post-canon reveal, since that's not what I could call explicit. But there's a similar concern of erasing finite representation.
like i guess it kind of comes across like "what good is this character if you can't ship with them?"
r💀ll them b💀nes
2018-04-30T18:58:15.000Z
I'm very shrug about it and love multishipping just anybody with anybody, for the sake of what if and exploring character dynamics. But with a sense of, don't forget what's canon of them.
I'm not saying it's hugely immoral either way because it's ultimately just fiction and the characters aren't real and its just fandom
but... i'd bet its something that WOULD hurt some feelings, at any rate.
Gayple
2018-04-30T19:00:23.000Z
it's also a little tricky when canon blatantly contradicts what the author says outside of canon too
Gayple
2018-04-30T19:01:01.000Z
Like, if a character has shown romantic or sexual attraction to another character in canon, but the author later says they're aroace, I can see where the confusion could be
r💀ll them b💀nes
2018-04-30T19:02:23.000Z
Yeah. I don't go "ah, Keladry of Mindelen, my aroace hero!" after her crushes where I imagined how things might have gone if the crushes had felt something on those lines for her.
r💀ll them b💀nes
2018-04-30T19:03:41.000Z
I go "ah, her sense of fulfillment from helping people is more to her than any of the shipping complications, so she'd only be content partnered with someone who shares those values"
Aki
2018-04-30T19:17:32.000Z
actually keladry is who im referring to
Aki
2018-04-30T19:18:05.000Z
ive just gotten to the part of the book where she seems to be crushing on neal and its cute
Aki
2018-04-30T19:18:32.000Z
i can't help thinking "i wonder what that dynamic would be like" and finding it interesting, though i knew already going into the series that tamora has stated kel to be aroace
Aki
2018-04-30T19:21:05.000Z
personally im the type of person who wouldn't be offended if someone wanted to ship a lesbian/gay character with someone of the opposite gender. but i understand why people don't like it because its sort of a denial of the characters identity. like if you can't really see someone being in the relationship in an ic way its sort of like 'whats the point'
Aki
2018-04-30T19:21:26.000Z
or even just some kind of weird wishful thinking/self insert like a "wouldn't the character be better IF" which yeah is rude
Aki
2018-04-30T19:21:40.000Z
also of course there's the erasing representation aspect
Aki
2018-04-30T19:22:15.000Z
in this case the fact that keladry is aroace hasn't come up in what i've read yet. so it feels. it feels really weird to read a character having a romantic crush on someone and then
Aki
2018-04-30T19:22:21.000Z
have the author sort of retcon it
Aki
2018-04-30T19:24:06.000Z
so anyway while normally i would think "yes this is wrong because it erases representation and [other reasons i listed]" in this case it feels like the author's interpretation of her has just... shifted since canon has been written and i don't know if that changes that at all
Aki
2018-04-30T19:24:33.000Z
lol this probably doesnt make any sense. im not going to cry if shipping it is offensive or anything i guess i was just curious what people would think
yeah that's a weird situation
i think that like... if you explored shipping while also keeping them on the aroace side of things, like... not just having her go FULL SHIPPING, and keeping that part of her in focus even if its more flexible than the author claims would have been appropriate
W(erewolf)ILF
2018-04-30T19:29:54.000Z
yeah i feel like quix has about got it
W(erewolf)ILF
2018-04-30T19:30:04.000Z
especially since there's canon precedent
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:31:38.000Z
I... don't really care for the author's reveal with her honestly. This one really is an odd case though.
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:34:53.000Z
but Kel and Neal are pretty cute.
Aki
2018-04-30T19:35:43.000Z
i dont even think it will work long term? im only on book 2 right now
Aki
2018-04-30T19:35:55.000Z
but i like opposites attracting im ngl its my weakspot
Aki
2018-04-30T19:36:04.000Z
and they are very opposite
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:41:37.000Z
they have a very fun dynamic
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:43:49.000Z
that series really is wonderful though, I'm always glad to see new people are reading it
Aki
2018-04-30T19:45:06.000Z
i hadnt read it for a long time because i always thought "isn't this the same plot as the lioness quartet"
Aki
2018-04-30T19:45:11.000Z
but now im reading it im like
Aki
2018-04-30T19:45:21.000Z
"ITS NOT THE SAME AT ALL> ITS BETTER"
Aki
2018-04-30T19:46:11.000Z
i mean im rereading the alanna series alongside this and george just fucking drugs alanna in the second book ????
Aki
2018-04-30T19:46:23.000Z
LIKE HE DOESNT DO ANYTHING TO HER BUT STILL CAN WE NOT MAYBE?
Aki
2018-04-30T19:46:37.000Z
this was after i was already like "ew" when he kissed her without her consent
Aki
2018-04-30T19:47:04.000Z
and like they meet in the library and it describes alanna as afraid basically whenever he's like "i like you" im just like
Aki
2018-04-30T19:47:10.000Z
um this is not how you romance tammy p
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:50:54.000Z
haaaa yeah that moment is... yeah...
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:51:51.000Z
I like George a lot better by the end of the quartet when he's learned some goddamn chill but tamora pierce and romance just. very often doesn't work.
andalite!
2018-04-30T19:53:41.000Z
looking at the first couple song of the lioness, some of protector of the small, and then the middle book of provost's dog you can see she's learning about actual consent but there's also the feeling that men pursue and women permit.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:14:45.000Z
i didnt get that feeling in wild magic but that romance has very different issues
Aki
2018-05-01T00:15:12.000Z
like the fact that she retconned them to be only 7 years apart instead of the 11 it was in the actual series
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:15:33.000Z
Which characters?
Aki
2018-05-01T00:15:38.000Z
numair and daine
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:15:52.000Z
did she? I thought Numair was in his thirties?
Aki
2018-05-01T00:16:20.000Z
in the original series she said numair left carthak after his 21 birthday
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:16:33.000Z
if he was 24 when they hooked up it's not quite as dramatic.
Huh.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:16:41.000Z
he returned in emperor mage after 7 years when daine is 15 and he is 28
Aki
2018-05-01T00:17:04.000Z
well mathmatically he would 28
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:17:13.000Z
Huh...
Aki
2018-05-01T00:17:15.000Z
tammy has number dyslexia which i forget the proper name for
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:17:24.000Z
dyscalcula?
Aki
2018-05-01T00:17:28.000Z
yeah
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:17:29.000Z
...something like that lol?
Aki
2018-05-01T00:17:35.000Z
but the math in the other books is a consist at 11/12 years apart
Aki
2018-05-01T00:17:58.000Z
but now on her official timeline and in the newer books they;ve changed it to seven with him running from carthay at 17
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:18:17.000Z
I see! Huh, I haven't really been keeping up.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:18:37.000Z
yeah im really wanting to app numair somewhere so i was doing all this math and it gets very screwy
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:19:11.000Z
well that means I'll probably like his second book better lol, I felt like there wasn't enough conflict for me but he's coming up on that point by the end.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:19:58.000Z
omg dont get me started. so fascinating that the ONE time tammy writes a male lead in her tortall series (briar of course shes written before but thats in emelan) he's the most PASSIVE FUCKING CHARACTER EVER
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:20:40.000Z
agh god yeah
Aki
2018-05-01T00:20:41.000Z
and like i get why and i even kind of like having such a passive male protoganist like its honestly kind of fucking cute to me but alanna and daine and kel never let things just happen to them or not do something if they thought something was wrong
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:20:47.000Z
Yes!
Aki
2018-05-01T00:21:32.000Z
but aram just is so shy and terrified of loosing his only friends
Aki
2018-05-01T00:21:40.000Z
that he just never fucking says anything to them
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:21:59.000Z
also I was kinda annoyed that in Emperor Mage Varice complains about Numair wanting her to do more dramatic things with magic and in Tempests and Slaughter someone tells her that and he's indignant for her.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:22:29.000Z
he is indignant for her but thats because he is thinking from how he would feel if it were said to him
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:22:30.000Z
some narration about him Not Getting It and agreeing with those people even just in his head would have added at least some inner conflict, you know?
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:22:36.000Z
/nods
Aki
2018-05-01T00:22:36.000Z
he doesnt actually consider varice's feeling
Aki
2018-05-01T00:23:10.000Z
which i think is a point that will come up later because they are both young and likely each other's first real relationship so
Aki
2018-05-01T00:23:18.000Z
there's bound to be those slights on both sides
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:23:23.000Z
I hope so.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:23:48.000Z
i think it will def come up in the next book and i BELIEVE he will start being more vocal with ozorne at least i hope so
Aki
2018-05-01T00:24:06.000Z
i mean he cant get banished without actually telling ozorne he disagrees right
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:24:47.000Z
I was so disappointed in that book! The title promised so much carnage and drama and in the book this is just sequestered in little segments buffered by endless Good At School And Foreshadowing Fallout stuff.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:24:52.000Z
god im just so excited to see this friend group torn apart
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:25:00.000Z
lol maybe he just has something to do with a sirajit
Aki
2018-05-01T00:25:35.000Z
i can very easily see that happening. it pissed me off that when ozorne was such a dick to the pastry seller varice was just like "DONT DO THAT CANT YOU SEE IT UPSETS HIM"
Aki
2018-05-01T00:25:49.000Z
and im like OKAY YEAH BUT CAN WE POINT OUT HOW FUCKING UNWARRANTED IT WAS like
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:25:49.000Z
yeah! yeah.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:25:55.000Z
varice common
Aki
2018-05-01T00:26:09.000Z
show you have at least some god damn decency here besides just making everyone play nice
Aki
2018-05-01T00:26:33.000Z
even with the gladiator fights she didnt care about profitting off the gladiators deaths by gambling
Aki
2018-05-01T00:26:41.000Z
even though she knew arram hated the arenea
Aki
2018-05-01T00:26:51.000Z
like does she just think he has a weak constitution
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:27:21.000Z
Absolutely! He's like oh she's so nice for holding back her attention to help distract me.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:27:40.000Z
aram just needs to wake up
Aki
2018-05-01T00:27:59.000Z
hes an idealist and he thinks his friends all have the same opinions as him even when their actions contradict that
Aki
2018-05-01T00:28:15.000Z
i tihink realizing that isnt the case is going to be the start of his problems with ozorne specifically
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:28:21.000Z
I did kinda like that throughout the book you see Slavery Is Bad And Here's Why whenever he's off the school grounds but at the end of the book he doesn't know how he feels about it.
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:28:36.000Z
or until the end.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:28:55.000Z
he's only 13 when the book ends and he grows up friends with very privelleged people
Aki
2018-05-01T00:29:16.000Z
i can understand why he wouldnt have really thought about it at all until he helps heal during the arena fightd
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:29:20.000Z
yeah, this was kinda Beka's problem too - believing her partners were just as good and idealistic as her, which is why I'm one of the people who doesn't object to Mastiff.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:29:35.000Z
i didnt read the beka series
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:29:37.000Z
it does help that the university employs servants instead of slaves
Aki
2018-05-01T00:29:41.000Z
i didnt enjoy the first book
Aki
2018-05-01T00:29:54.000Z
its on my reread list though
Aki
2018-05-01T00:30:07.000Z
i was listening to the audio books first chapter and i actually enjoyed it
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:30:09.000Z
I love the Beka series but it's kinda uneven so, ymmv!
Aki
2018-05-01T00:30:27.000Z
though every time she calls breasts "peaches" im just like CAN YOU NOT PLEASE
Aki
2018-05-01T00:30:43.000Z
i dunno why that always really irritated me
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:30:58.000Z
loool yeah luckily it only happens like... three times?
It's historical slang but some works better than others.
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:31:38.000Z
like tbh I really like "mot" for "woman" and "cove" for man and I don't know why.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:32:03.000Z
it just feels like
Aki
2018-05-01T00:32:13.000Z
f you cant even say what they are in your own diary
Aki
2018-05-01T00:32:29.000Z
i dunno. like YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO WILL SEE THIS
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:32:37.000Z
maybe it's just my old linguistic complaint that "man" used to mean "human" and there were male humans "wermen" and female humans "wifman" and I don't like some of the shift.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:32:38.000Z
just call them breasts!
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:33:26.000Z
yeah she uses "it hurt like a pinch in the peach" once and that at least has alliteration.
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:33:57.000Z
but all the more physical uses...
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:40:19.000Z
...tbh I also feel like varice's power level and general importance in t&s is much boosted over what it was in The Immortals, maybe just so there'd be a female main character.
Aki
2018-05-01T00:54:54.000Z
i think she made a lot of changes like that, and some she didnt. like i was surprised chioke was mentioned at all in emperor mage. he certainly doesnt say anything, but his name comes up at least 3 times!
andalite!
2018-05-01T00:58:20.000Z
Yeah... red Gift, that's most of what I remember about him.
andalite!
2018-05-01T01:00:29.000Z
so it makes sense expanding on things, esp given how short emperor mage was. It just seemed odd that a mage now said to be on Ozorne's level has such a small role in her original appearance.
andalite!
2018-05-01T01:01:28.000Z
I guess that's her "smooth everything over, be nice and get along" characterization again, she wouldn't go against him.
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