MrJoeJon wonders
2010-07-24T02:44:29.000Z
do cells make personal choices?
latest #37
MrJoeJon
2010-07-24T02:48:52.000Z
if so, does that mean we have no free will?
Redarts
2010-07-24T02:58:42.000Z
Cell just respond to their environment, but that does not mean we have free will.
Redarts
2010-07-24T03:03:26.000Z
You could take it back even further and say that all matter is just resounding to the beginning state of the universe.
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DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:18:38.000Z
Well, that's true unless you take into account quantum physics.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:19:13.000Z
Truly, there is no such thing as free will in the multi-verse, but because the path of an electron is "random" there is such a thing as
DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:19:35.000Z
random circumstance in each individual dimension.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:20:26.000Z
Collapse those eigenstates, you tiny negatively-charged fuckers!
DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:21:23.000Z
So, about individual cells... random shit will happen to them, so they are adrift in the sea of possibility like the rest of everything.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T03:22:14.000Z
But unless they are networked together into a larger organism that has a nervous system to "decide" with, they have no free will.
Redarts
2010-07-24T03:58:37.000Z
You seem to be under the impression that the quantum universe effects the macro universe but their is no evidence for that as of yet.
MrJoeJon
2010-07-24T03:58:47.000Z
same thing for a human
MrJoeJon
2010-07-24T03:59:35.000Z
we die quickly with out earth.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:01:06.000Z
We evolved to live on earth.
MrJoeJon
2010-07-24T04:02:24.000Z
and the cells inside us evolved inside us.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:02:31.000Z
I think saying that the quantum universe doesn't affect the macro universe is like creationists differentiating between micro and
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:02:34.000Z
macro evolution.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:04:02.000Z
Not at all, I am confident the quantum does effect the macro but their is no evidence for it.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:04:31.000Z
With evolution their are mountains of evidence.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:05:05.000Z
I think the evidence pointing to the fact that you cannot record the location of an electron without changing it help with this argument.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:07:18.000Z
How so? All I am saying is that as of this moment we as humans have not found a direct link for the quantum to the macro.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:08:45.000Z
By recording the location of an electron, you collapse it's wave function, making it choose a particular position to inhabit.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:09:37.000Z
Before it's recorded, the probability of it being in certain positions of it's orbit are equal.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:10:27.000Z
It does not have a fixed position at any given time unless observed, which means that viewing it acts as a randomizing function.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:11:02.000Z
This demonstrates that individual atoms in the universe are not "fixed" into any single course of action.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:11:36.000Z
Does this translate into a "macro" world? How could it not? Everything is composed of atoms.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:12:00.000Z
Not so, the way in witch you measure the atom is what effects it.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:13:59.000Z
We can make some quantum events act in a certain way but we do not know if the quantum world effects the macro.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:14:58.000Z
Or it might be better to say assuming that the quantum world effect the macro world we do not know how.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:15:36.000Z
You can get strange effects when you do things like compress hydrogen in a tank. The orbits of the H electrons do funny things.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:16:35.000Z
They actually settle into semi-stable orbits, like faux-ionic bonds when you press enough of them together. Liquid H is crazy stuff.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:17:11.000Z
I guess I agree that there is no direct evidence that quantum changes affect the larger world...
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:17:34.000Z
But they are the effects of sub-atomic particles, which is what everything is made of, so thus part of the world.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:17:47.000Z
I guess what I'm meaning to say is that I think there is an artificial barrier there.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:18:34.000Z
I think it's just an unknown unknown as of right now.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:19:59.000Z
Particle physics is awesome. It's a neat area where chemistry and physics interact.
Redarts
2010-07-24T04:23:21.000Z
It's like a Recces peanut butter cup.
DerekD says
2010-07-24T04:23:42.000Z
Hey, you got your chemistry in my physics!
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