> context: hate towards "tumblr style writing"
> OP: you have to let people learn and grow with their writing, like sometimes you need to let art be "bad" (even though it's a style many like btw)

> A: You’re right but we should also give criticism, because I see some people considering criticism to be rude and “ we need to support small creators” even though this will make more bad art

> James: well, I do think context is important for that, however, because if I'm just writing an off-the-cuff tumblr post for fun, then some rando's "concrit" is just unwarranted and a buzzkill
> A: No one will improve with that kind of mentality

wanking gesture

Hottest of Takes: has this person you are randomly critiquing somehow, miraculously gotten by without your assistance until now. Can they continue to do so? Then maybe your critique is not vital after all.

(and look I had to repeat that advice to myself when a webcomic I was reading ended in a way I massively disliked. Kept me from burning up hours writing undesired critique at least. Also I'm pretty sure the artist learned a ton more from making that comic than from any critique I could offer.)

"this will make more bad art" welcome to human existence!

the joy of creation is infinitely more valuable than the quality of the final product

Don't like, Don't Read

I mean i had to give up reading fanfic for a while because of certain trends, but they're trends and then other styles trend instead or standard styles return

"good art" and "improving your art" is uh... odd to talk about. like, art is a matter of self-expression.

but, and this is really only tangentially related, i think i would be a little less willing to listen to someone complaining of "tumblr-style writing" if that's how they phrased it

also if you are going to critique, I WOULD in fact like some credentials. what have you beta read. what is your history as a line editor. what have you written and is it in line with what I am making. weirdly a lot of these critique folks get weirdly grumpy if you ask for that.

...or you say "oh, does this mean you are interested in beta reading- WHY ARE YOU RUNNING AWAY??? WHY ARE YOU RUNNING????"

yeah, like...unsolicited concrit was the norm in the FFN era, and it still is if you still post there. except it was often more like flames and trying to bully 'bad' writers into leaving

it's still the norm in fic spaces with a higher percentage of guys, like spacebattles and fimfiction, but they do it more like 'objective critique' than bullying

but it's not the norm on ao3 or tumblr so like...yah you're gonna get a bit of pushback

tbh more than the "tumblr-style writing" bit, it's the "bad art" thing that would make me cautious lmao

Every single art form in human history has someone call it bad from one perspective or another

Shakespeare was considered low brow in his day

exactly. like, what that tells me is that this person views their tastes as objectively 'good', and would pressure whatever person is getting their 'concrit' into those tastes..... rather than listening to the artist on what THEY think their weak spots are and what they want to improve on

We must accept that the MHA fanfics about the characters having discord chats together are the Shakespeares of our day

yeah like sometimes you write something silly for fun and is not looking for a critique no matter how "helpful" someone tries to be

good is subjective

and criticizing someone's best effort is a great way to never get art out of them ever again

good job, you fixed it. no more bad art!

it reminds me of a cute webcomic I was reading a long time ago but then every page they put on someone would critique it. It got to the point where they deleted the whole comic before it ended and I was sad because I thought it was good

the people who think critiquing strangers is a good idea must think they have objectively impeccable taste and skills in whatever medium, when the reality is that art is subjective and what they have to say, again to a total stranger, may be completely irrelevant to what that stranger is trying to achieve

"critics" are a dime a dozen. good betas who see your strengths and understand your vision and listen to you about your ideas on your weak spots, are excalibur rarity

it's just always so wild to me that people think they can offer useful critique without so much as saying hello first. like no, that tells me you're not actually thinking about supporting or helping the creator. you have no interest in the creator.

oh found an old quote from ace that nails it

Why I don't like con crit in general bc it takes a very specific mindset, and person, honestly to do it well. Bc that person has to want to see the author's vision more than they want to be right and the vast majority of people looking to give crit can't do that

y e p

my general philosophy is "if I wouldn't take your advice then I'm not going to take your 'criticism'"

you aren't a professional, my teacher, my editor, or even my friend, why the hell should I care about your opinion

That person can absolutely glue their lips to my left nut

First, love the implication that they are a perfectly objective judge of what is 'good' and 'bad' art, which is a wildly arrogant claim to make in and of itself

Also love the concept that 1) the goal of making all art is for it to be 'good', and 2) that it is possible to make 'good' art without first making a whole fuckload of 'bad' art

yeah, 'good' does not mean 'something that i personally approve of'

Like, how do you think people who make the 'good' art you enjoy GOT good you molding eggplant in the corner of a produce drawer

'bad art' can be great, just look at hyperbole and a half

I assure you that 'making tons of bad art to refine their craft' is a MUCH more guaranteed and in fact inescapable part of the process than improvement than 'listening to the random guttersnipings of entitled individuals telling them what they think they did wrong'

Like, I got criticism AND I got years of practice writing, GUESS WHAT THE FORMER DIDN'T MAKE THE LATTER UNNECESSARY it just made the latter more miserable

also if they want to improve with concrit they will either take a class that provides that or they'll ask for it

And if I hadn't gotten the former, the latter would STILL have led to me improving, so the idea that critique is a necessary part of the art improvement process is really just what people with overinflated views of their own opinions say to help themselves sleep at night

and unsolicited criticism usually isn't concrit

it's just crit

"I'm providing a valuable service to the artistic community!"

You're not. You know you're not. You just want to force creators to listen to your complaints like it's a part of their job when - checks - they're not even doing a fucking job, and if they were, you would be the part they hated most

No one is OBLIGATED to listen to you shit on something they made for fun and for free, and the idea that they should is indeed chilling to creators making things for fun and for free because who WOULD want that to be some inescapable part of the process

way too many people treat artists and writers like their personal entertainment creator

(And, of course, like. Writers can seek out their own concrit if they want it, from people they trust to have good opinions and decent reading comprehension and a basic understanding of what they're trying to achieve)

(The idea that these randos have to crash through the wall like the Koolaid Man to save humble fan creators from not having valuable input on their work is THE STUPIDEST train of thought. Like. They can just ask if they want it? And even pick who they ask??? Incredible)

it's such a patronizing line of thought too to think your random criticism of someone's thing is needed for them to "improve"

like you're teaching a child

red flag behavior to me tbh

yeah

I swear every person I see making these stupid arguments activates some kind of D&D monster instinct in me, where I want to become a gargantuan class slime cube and absorb these idiots so I can slowly digest them like the angriest and most lethal jello mold

that's a very vivid visual LOL

The violence I feel is not PG-13

But also I'm lazy and they're not worth more effort than me rolling over on them

valid

the problem with the internet is that everyone wants to be a critic, but few know how to do it well. and everyone thinks their taste is king and if they don't cater to those tastes, they suck.

Love how we have just about every successful creator in every artistic field going "yeah the most important things are to practice regardless of whether or not your results start out good", and then Rando McReadsalot rolls in pushing up their anime glasses going "heheh, well, ACTUALLY what you need to improve is ME"

Is that so, Junior. Is. That. A Fact.

the professionals don't say that their opinion is needed.

You know better than extremely successful people who create extremely successful art what is vital to make the good art, and it just HAPPENS that you're the secret ingredient? Wild

pashchan: Yep, that's it exactly

I've said it before and I'll say it again, even just EDITING is hard if you really take it seriously, and James knows how I am about it because I have edited zir work before

And I have straight up agonized over whether or not to change a sentence to be more readable and flow better to me, or whether or not that alters James' unique writing voice in a way that simply makes it closer to "here's how I would express this" when. How I would express something James wrote is NOT the point of the exercise

Hell, what's more readable and flows better to me isn't even an objective judgment, it might read worse to someone else if I change it - though of course when you're the one requested to do edits/give feedback, to some degree you have to rely on your own instincts and trust that the person who requested your services trusts them, too

So usually if it's a small thing I will lean into what makes it more readable to me - but then you run into the issue of changing whole sentences/thoughts and how they're worded/structured, and that's where you run into the concerns of just. Imposing your own voice over the creator's

(Obviously this is leaning a lot into writing because that's my area of expertise, but critique and feedback on art is even MORE subjective and prone to "okay so is this actually bad or is it just not to your personal tastes, and can you even tell the difference?")

I need certain people to understand that like... criticism in certain contexts really does come off as like, telling that person you are better than them

Also I really want to know what 'Tumblr Style' writing is. (why do I think it's gonna make me roll my eyes and wondering if op is reading the wrong things.)

sometimes you're criticizing a thing you don't know about, or worse you've outgrown it.

fun update ftr
> James: oh i can tell your 'concrit' would be terrible and you'd make their stuff worse
> A: what, how
> James: well if you don't know the right context/timing to give concrit, then that doesn't bode well for the crit itself, and also you stating things like 'bad art' confidently when art is so subjective -
> A: [sudden silence]

pushy concrit types can give but never take

I love how the people so enthusiastic about giving 'concrit' have like. Legit never questioned their own perspective on things literally ever

I'm gonna make a bold claim here: I think every single person who thinks they should be allowed to give unsolicited concrit to 'bad' art is neurotypical, because no neurodivergent person has ever been so utterly self-confident that their perspective is unquestionably correct

We are so used to being told we're wrong and questioning ourselves that I struggle to believe a neurodivergent person could look at any piece of art and go "this is objectively wrong, and I know the perfect way to fix it"

All I need is one person to contradict me on something I am 100% sure is correct to make me question my life choices and entire worldview all the way back to the womb

Like shit dude I was sure the sky was blue but you'd probably know better than me, I'd better go fact-check myself on Wikipedia

(For legal purposes I am joking, I know there are a lot of autistic people considerably less self-aware than myself who think there is only one objectively correct way for things to exist and it is the exact way they like things to be, among others)

(But I wouldn't be surprised if the hutzpah and ego required to believe you are an objective judge of art trends neurotypical for the previously stated reasons of needing. A whole lot of unearned self-confidence as an objectively impartial judge and also very little self-reflection or analysis)

what's "fun" to me is I took a class last semester where part of it involved reading a bunch of academic articles and talking with their writers about their work. one of the folks gave us both one of their articles AND a letter they sent to the editor after getting peer reviewed feedback for changes

the letter was broken into 3 parts: "I've made these changes and highlighted them in red so the reviewer can find them easily", "I looked into this and decided the copyright issues were going to be a problem, if you want pictures from specific books, you are welcome to ask the publisher yourself" (the journal never did this),

and "no, I will not make that change, because it goes against what this piece is about"

there was also another person who talked about being asked to peer review a piece and had to turn it down, because after reading it she determined she knew nothing about the paper topic and wouldn't be able to review it