the thing is that we know so little about Vincent

directly

but there's so many pieces all over the canon

parks myself in here

like I'm pretty sure we've only had one orphanage mentioned in the series so, uh, the orphanage he went to is probably the same one as Walter Sullivan. This one. The fact that he's so similar to Claudia as mentioned isn't surprising

but it means that really really Vincent was basically surrounded by Believers

and he so clearly is Not One.

I mean, he believes

he absolutely believes it's real because it IS.

but just because you acknowledge a parent is your biological progenitor doesn't mean you believe they are a Good Parent To You. and that's kinda where Vincent is

he believes in his God because she is real, and he Loves his god, because you have to love them because they have power over you and there's no sense in not doing that.

also because you exist because of them and you will die because of them

and he calls out Claudia for her faith What you call "faith" is nothing more than a child crying out for love. That's why you're all alone!

but Vincent has never believe in God's love. his eyes seeing the reality of things cannot accept that God loves him. his faith if Fear and he knows it and acknowledges it

and he doesn't really feel any shame about that

he thinks he's Got The Ticket, knows How Things Work.

and he's not ENTIRELY wrong.

but he can't let GO for the reason that I said in the previous plurk

"What was all my suffering under you worth if I don't get something from it?'

And so much of rebuilding the church is him getting 'something' from it

using the money to build something that HE gets to control, a version of it that has HIM at the head, and using it to make money he can skim off the top for himself for all the nice things that the orphanage never allowed him to have, that they hurt him for wanting

it's like someone who stays in contact so that when their abusive parent has a fall and is no longer sound, YOU get to decide things. even though you're just being spiteful and very much cutting your nose off to spite your face

and I actually think a lot of that gets channeled at Heather

people are always like 'omg she's a teenager' as to him being a jerk to her

but to HIM, she's not a teenager

she's Alessa, who was daughter to Dahlia, who was previously one of the old family scions, the Mother of God.

She's Alessa who to his mind pulled Claudia into the madness

She's Alessa who's created this horrible situation in his home and who fucks with reality and who all this fucking hubub is about and through which all of what he's built and done to regain SOME control in his life and his world gets flushed down the toilet

Alessa who's going to birth God and ruin everything

and then she walks in with an attitude and self-righteous when she got to grow up away from all this, loved and protected. she got a REDO and he doesn't and now she's going to ruin everything.

HELL YEAH he feels it's her place to fix the problem. HELL YEAH does he want the blood on HER hands and not his, because her hands are already stained. The fact that she doesn't know that only makes him angrier.

Vincent has done what he's done, worked within The World As It Is (as he understands it, as he can imagine it, because he's stuck in the mindset of the cult no matter that he isn't a Believer), and he's done it without getting his hands dirty. He doesn't see so much of what he perpetuated as being On Him because he suffered it as well.

That's just the knocks of life. That's just how things work here. Don't like it, build your own fucking church back up. That's the only way to stop the pain, stop being the abused: get on top. There is no other escape.

justghosts if you wanted to see ^_^

and violence is such a Thing for him because that's the way of Leon Wolf.

that's the way of the people who hurt him, who hurt Claudia, who hurt all of the kids and FUCKED them up

and as long as he doesn't do it, it's just other people's choices. it's just the way the world works. It's just him working in the system

but the second he does it, uses violent force, he's One Of Them himself

he's not smarter than, he's not working the system. he's part of it (he's always part of it, things he has to work through to realize) and he cannot handle that

he wants arcane/occult power because that is CONTROL

it's OPTIONS

it's the means to meddle in the forces that he feels powerless agains, to protect the things he cares about, to protect HIMSELF against what seems like an overwhelming force that money and power cannot protect him against despite his best efforts

his major research is into the Book of Memories and he wants it so bad

he wants it to be able to CONTROL things and I absolutely believe he thinks he can walk the line and use the Book Correctly

it's so much that he wants something that DOES require a certain amount of caring about others or you will get FUCKED. like.

I know he's a self-important ass, but he wouldn't have the memory of Claudia's abuse 'burned into his mind' (no mention of his own) if he didn't care about other people.

it's just TWISTED AS FUCK

the other thing that the Book of Memories has going for it is that it chooses it's user. And GOD does he want to be chosen

being in a sect, raised by a sect, that valued women over men, the 'mothers' over men, the frustration of having no supernatural power, the frustration of being the one who built the church and having his contributions basically ignored by Claudia as worldly nonsense when yes, he's bankrolling you

it's one of the main reasons he said yes to the Admiral

Even if it was for hell, someone chose him

but a lot of this, funny enough, is why he gets SO ANGRY when someone calls 'cult!' about the Barge or things that are Not Cults.

He Is Not Stupid. He knows what his church is. He is as worldly as he can be. He is Fully Aware of how the Order works. He was raised in this shit, by the most militant of believers.

He is here to prevent his God being born because it would fuck up everything. And because he knows no other way to exist, sees no other system.

this is just the one he knows well enough and saw the opportunity to get on top of.

/done (for the moment)

deep dives are fun. thank you for sharing.

more random bits!

1. he has bad teeth because of a. abuse (knocked out ones) and b. subconscious adult rebellion from cleanliness to godliness bullshit in the orphanage and c. focus on his studies

2. he dresses fancy because that makes him feel good about himself.

3. he likes video games and movies and things that are Entirely Normal. But he does like rarer films and 'unknown gems' as it feeds a little bit into his hipster 'I know about this thing you don't' know it all nature

also because he probably started being able to only afford bargain bin stuff which meant a lot of schlock

but I do think a lot of what he thinks of as 'finer things' are a lot of stuff that was kinda focused on when he was younger, like it's a very juvenile idea of 'nice things'

like he'd never think to get stock options or a house in the hamptons or something. no, it's nice clothes and good food and whatever tech or games he wants, maybe a few pieces of jewelry that make him feel important

because he's had no guidance or ideas of what those things really are

MORE RAMBLES

He cares about people who care about others, and he WORRIES about martyrs and people who think suffering will lead to some sort of payoff in the end. He doesn't mistake these two things as one thing, but both of them bother him.

The caring people are people who are going to get hurt and used and fucked up and he doesn't actually enjoy that. Winning a game against someone who's not even playing isn't winning. it's cruelty. Winning against other fuckers is another matter

he's not 'protective' in the sense that he'd put himself bodily in front of them, but he does want to use what power and influence he has to look out for them. you hear him with one of the faithful and he absolutely uses her to get information, but he's relatively gentle with her and doesn't ask for too much

Martyrs (much like Claudia) upset him because they're willing to hurt people for God in the hopes of something better in another life and he doesn't believe that shit is real. or that God deserves your giving up your chance for happiness here. God doesn't deserve shit other than what you have to pay to keep her off your back.

Vincent believes in God, but he doesn't believe in the sweet fairy tales believers have come up with to make it palatable or to have 'hope' for something better than the crapsack they're in. And he sure as shit doesn't trust Her.

Aerith and Hanna are both people who care. Hanna is also a martyr and sorry but you bet he's going to leverage anything he has to to try and keep you safe and promote the value of yourself and your happiness

Aerith is the sister he always wanted. he DOES love Hanna and he wants to bring him happiness and pleasure and treat him like he's valuable because to Vincent HE IS.

nammah : )

Lark, he actually has some complicated feelings about.

For one, he doesn't trust him. Which is a default for most people, but Lark pulled a few things and said a few things that rang warning bells for him.

but he's not directly opposed to Lark, to him graduating, nor does he see Lark as overtly harmful or trying to indoctrinate him in anything

he sees Lark as another manipulator and that means he's going to put him through the ringer and needs to know his motivations and thoughts on things

and wants them both at roughly the same level of vulnerability. which is why he keeps tearing through anything he perceives as bullshit

he is not trying to attack so much as 'fine, you want to work with me, here's what's required'

Aerith's family slowly expands...

stalking their conversations is fun in that Vincent just doesn't let up at all.

BBitsaboi: nope! and funny enough, it's so that this actually works. He IS trying to help in a weird way.

falling for a manipulator means the logic isn't necessarily sound and you might eventually wake up and hate the whole thing

so he has to tear through that to something genuine to get a workable situation

where his survived-relatively-sane-in-a cult self can take in new ideas without feeling like he's just being conned into a DIFFERENT shitty thing

it's why he was against just asking for things

'I don't WANT you to bribe me, even if you are NOT INTENDING TO.'

'I know me. I like nice things.'

nammah: will he ever say this ever? never. do I want to do something in a breach with it? ABSOLUTELY if you're down

and for the record, he does love Hanna. he loves him DEARLY. and he's very possessive bout it in a quiet way. That is HIS boy.

this does not mean he won't manipulate him if he thinks it's for his best interest, his being Hanna's

Hanna is not stupid but dumb enough that it would probably work and he does really want people to like him.

(Jacob is in a different place, a Believer that he wants to look out for in a different way, a 'I have to make sure your eyes are open even if we both know it's better to bow' kind of way)

that would be amazing and I'd be down. I do find it interesting how they're both in "take care of Hanna" corner solidly and how it is like a cornerstone of their relationship

He also cares about her independently!

...the reeds and the trust with the materia and TALKING to him about the materia

valuing his input is a Lot

(once he accepts Lark actually wants his input and not just the appearance of wanting his input, they will be in a better place)

he's in that weird category of 'WOULD be incredibly loyal and feral about the people he's loyal to but has never had anyone worthy of that loyalty and the concept of people being worthy of that is still something he's adjusting to' because no one's ever stood by him.

I do love that Hanna is even more hesitant to admit shit to people he's more close with. Aerith and Vincent just gotta wiggle their fingers into the cracks forming and pull.

BBitsaboi: he knows you're not stupid. it's just a good thing he genuinely loves you. being honest and earnest does NOT mean you aren't being manipulative if you deploy it at the right times.

which tbh is probably necessary. he's not stupid but so, so dumb sometimes. and reckless. entirely reckless.

like you can look at what he's doing with Claudia and go 'oh look at him, betrayer!' but like... Claudia betrayed him first! and in a lot of ways, tossed aside what he'd built to chase after 'another' Alessa. Claudia LITERALLY stabs him in the back to kill him.

that reads 'scorned' much more than 'betrayal' to me, especially when he kept trying to talk her out of it.

Claudia talking about putting it all in Gods hands and he's like 'no, no, right now it's in OUR hands, where it's safe and can't hurt us, WHY DO YOU WANT GOD she'll just FUCK IT UP fucking hell' and there goes Claudia doing it anyway.

BBitsaboi: well there you go then

and in a way it will probably be helpful to have someone going at certain points 'HEY DON'T GET KILLED THAT WOULD ACTUALSAUCE HURT ME'

I mean him realizing that is on his graduation check list so please shove his nose in it very hard xD

oh I'm looking forward to Hanna getting to see him actually have a bit of a breakdown about it

if he ever has to come upon Hanna's beaten and broken body at any point

depending in the actual reasons for death and the aftermath he's slated for at least 1 or 2 more before he actually gets it. but Vinny certainly could keep that to a 1.

yeaaaaah he will

vincent honestly should have seen that coming with the toxic, possibly lesbian situationship/possibly adopted sisterhood thing claudia and og alessa had going on before the whole soul split happened

that's on him, when you think about it

onlyg: oh I think he did! didn't keep him from being angry about it and/or hoping that he could break it or that he mattered enough, or more specifically, had DONE enough to help her to break it

Alessa left! she abandoned everything, including Claudia! I stayed! I stayed and I rebuilt everything and I made you my partner in this!

(so many things are On Him, please don't take anything said in here as absolving him, So Much of this is Justification and maladaptive learning and a very broken understanding of how relationships should work)

... actually, that brings up an interesting question that i don't think canon is actually clear about; which of them found out about heather first?

i know douglas was hired by claudia, initially, but vincent had the photo with the "kill her" note on it

onlyg: I actually assume it was something Vincent did for Claudia, and in Vincent's mind it was a a nail in the coffin whereas Claudia saw it as a 'oh yes, I found her, LET'S CONTINUE'

that sounds plausible, yeah

The idea of Claudia hiring an outside source for this doesn't really jive in my brain. Even if she asked him to do it, I see him as being the one, especially since detectives require pay.

Vincent: Look. She's gone. She's left us behind. She never cared about you. Move on.
Claudia: We found her! Now we can reconnect and bring about Paradise together like we always dreamed!
Vincent: .../deep sigh

When you're trying to prove a point and they take a completely opposite point you want them to make...

which... fits right in with how evidence doesn't help convince people to leave cults and all.

also on a meta-contextual level, he's a male character in a story that's ultimately about feminine horrors, he never stood a chance

onlyg: yup.

like from a metatextual standpoint, he is The Guy Who Doesn't Get It.

but from his PoV there's a lot more

I love this entire ramble. Somehow I hadn't even thought about Vincent being a Wish House kid, but of course he is.

like so much of SH3 is about the feminine, yes, but just as a Silent Hill character, as someone in the Order, with all the SH stuff as it exists, his choices just are kinda fascinating. and I don't think there's anyone else who's kinda straddled that line in the weird way he does with his relationship with the Order, etc.

siderealtime: yeah I was like 'it's a small town, no way are there two orphanages. and he was an orphan so... almost certainly grew up there, yup,

also

but yeah, no wonder you Do Bad Things you go to prison is kinda ingrained and is fucking up his perception of the Barge

(with a side of 'this isn't like Real Prison, when is the other shoe going to drop')

not me reading through that wiki like oh my god those poor kids.

yeeeeah, I can just imagine the 'no, really, when's the rug get pulled?' of it all, especially after dealing with that.

BBitsaboi: your boys been through some shit, Hanna

also I feel like that's where so much of the "appear good, do the right things, answer with sir or ma'am" comes from. follow the rules and you don't get sent to Water Prison. follow the rules and no one cares what's in your heart. they'll decide anyway. just behave right, say the right things.

Hanna's bullshit was more contained to specific horrific moments, he had a great childhood until he didn't. Poor Vinny.

i definitely get the feeling Claudia was like the one who had all the faith but didn't always fall in line due to her passion (hence Leon) where Vincent learned the rules and always Looked Right to keep himself safe

and knew how to hide his hate

Claudia's faith was liquid, and flowed around Alessa, and this promise that Alessa represented; a release from Claudia's suffering.

Vincent was also focused on his survival, but saw manipulating and controlling the system itself as the means of which to do so.

that feels like the primary difference between them

yup!

i also think though that Vincent saw it as a system

where Claudia saw it as something personal

faith being something that has to be your whole chest and you take all of it or none of it. whereas Vincent accepts the system but doesn't accept the premise.

/chinhandsing at all of this

Lark never got to work through his feelings around cults and religion and I'm hoping to get to dive into that once Vincent and he trust each other enough to talk about it

justghosts: yaaay

I do wonder if the difference of system vs personal has to do with the nature of God as a feminine force in the Order, or with her having supernatural power or with her relationship to Alessa or if it has to do with socioeconomic situation. Cause Leonard was a violent loon who apparently publically abused his kid but nothing was done

until he stabbed someone and even then he went to the hospital and not to like, JAIL. usually speaks to money. and Money vs. orphanage kid... you gonna see the world differently

probably all of the above!

justghosts: I'm so curious about Lark's feelings about cults and religion

other than some of the stuff you've said about the pack being a bit of a cult

It definitely has similar traits, and I think Lark might walk away a better pack leader after this. He isn't as quick to kill dissenters as he was when he was an inmate but it's still on the table

The only god he believes in is a trickster who peddles in chaos to try to entertain a Creator God who is wholly indifferent

(it's been a while, is that a canonical thing or something that he picked up on barge?)

That's canon! But after meeting Sweeney he's more willing to be like "yes maybe there is LITERALLY a trickster who creates chaos in wolves' lives"