God be like SOUNDS FAKE

rofl

Nobuanga's just like "I didn't come up with it take it up with the Buddhists"

As Saint Young Men gets a whole new addition

Good thing I saved this like 100 times Sixth and highest heaven of the Desire Realm - Tibet...

LMAO NOBUNAGA. Just punched him in the face and is like oh, you lost? Going to go on the naughty list

He would show him to tacos but genuinely he has no idea where those are and if they even have them and he's never had them so also what the fuck those are

Klaus just in my brain like, "Kinky."

Klaus can meet God too

Create a list of the gods that hate him

Klaus is sure there are a lot

Nobunaga loves him <3

and only very 1/100th because gods hate him

Man I read Duck Demon of Hell and thought Ducktales is doing what now?

I need an AU of this now

Where Nobunaga is a duck

And conquers Ducktales

Just constantly talking with Scrooge about what could go smoother etc.

XD

Duck demons

Many years ago I had a joke villain character who was a demon and ducks were his domain. He could command flocks of evil ducks.

I mean Lucifer created ducks apparently

God be squinting at Klaus like hmmm what a resilient little bugger

rofl right?

Nobunaga's favorite

lol I would have thought if Lucifer created any animal it would be goats

lol nah Baphomet is uh

Muhammad

oh wow.

I assumed it ultimately came from Pan or other pagan Horned God types

but that is worse

Knights Templar man

yeah the origins of Baphomet are especially dumb out of all the dumb Christian demon origins

I'm not saying the British are reprehensible but

i mean from what i know, the goat-devil association definitely includes Pan and other pagan things and biblical references taken out of context, but Baphomet in particular is an especially dumb invention

early Christianity had a very wide ascetic, civilization-centric streak, and Pan and satyrs are intensely profane (in the sense of not being set aside from the earthly and carnal) and Wilderness oriented

i'm also pretty sure a surface level reading of the scapegoat plays a part

That makes sense. Plus that parable where sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell

From what I gather, it was pretty much the equivalent of calling himself Satan. All because Shingan was declaring himself the "protector of Buddhism"

that's my understanding from you and cc anyway XD

Yes

Christianity can be good at literally demonising anything outside it though. I was a bit of an ancient religion nerd as a teenager and remember arguing with a teacher at my Catholic school that no, Baal and Astarte were not demons.

Nobuanga 100000000% meant it sarcastically he's not really a BELIEVER

it's just when you meet a whole buncha gods IRL you get a little too uh into the facade

Basically he was like "I'm just tryign to help them buddhist monks ascend bro :V"

Which is super fucked up

since ascension = DEATH

That's funny my CCD is 100% "Don't fucking name or talk about demons, those are for losers who don't go to church "

Though the more everyone in hates on Mammon the more tempted I am to get the Obey Me Mammom just FUCK WITH HIS HEAD but nah

Constantly like "LUCIFER I NEED MORE MONEYYYYY" and whining at him pathetically

very confused why his bros are all different :V

LMAO.. I also play Mammon from Helluva Boss, throwing him on the tdm occasionally to stir up some shit and poof

Normally if Obey me, I'd to Beelzebub or Lucifer but welp def. can't demon + Nobunaga even though Nobuanga is a fake demon /// NOT A DEMON

It's basically performance art to him

He's doing a kuchiki Noh play but his life is the stage and script

MillisaK: right i mean... classically a "demon" is basically anything that's not accepted by your faith as a true deity, which doesn't mean they're evil, just that you shouldn't be worshipping them and probably shouldn't mess with them at all

Is that cringey? Yes. Is it also fucking hilarious? hell yea (at least to me)

Not... completely

I mean they took away Uriel's name for a long ass time (only recently restored it because internet + the demons are all known)

because they were worried ANGEL OF DEATH would accidentally have some cults

lbr there's some very weird angel and saint cult stuff in christianity at various times

Exactly hence the fear -- ditto for why my CCD is like "No. We don't talk about demons. Stop it."

Demons specifically don't serve God and are more bent towards the sins or to use Taoism / my Native American philosphy "The physical world instead of wanting to be WITH god"

which is funny considering how much angels are not beings of heat agency is judaism

centurii-chan (@CenturiiC) on X

There you go then. I mean a lot of the angels in Christianity is just 1) Norse Mythology 2) GrecoRoman mythology 3) Weirdass "OF COURSE YOU have been worshipping the same one true real god all along, YOU'RE one of the GOOD ones, not like your filthy heretic neighbors."

but don't get me started on Hell either

in judaism praying to angels would be like praying to your car's engine, you can do it to make yourself feel better if you want to, but if you want to actually change what it does, you need to direct prayer elsewhere and probably engage in some appropriate rituals

(alternately, like dealing with a bureaucrat who has no real power and can at best tell you what you're doing wrong, unless you're important enough to elevate your ticket)

roflmao

I mean you're DEFINITELY not supposed to pray TO your angel in Catholicism (idk on other Christianity's I DOUBT IT)

(my favorite is a folk tale about the death of Moses that several angels tried to take his soul and he refused and demanded to speak to their manager until either Michael or Metatron had to come to him personally like "dude it's time to go, stop terrorizing the field agents")

But some saints have like extremely religious traditions about praying certain amounts and when they fail that they ask their angels to finish that. I have no opinion on that, I side eye the extreme ritual to begin with

roflmao

That's awesome

lol this is all so weird

Samael: "Pff how tough can this be he's like 120 years old and tired"
Moses: "Fuck off in the name of Hashem or I'll make you eat this staff YOUR BOSS GAVE ME"
Samael: ;_;

XDDDDD

I have to admit as a baby Catholic reading my children's bible I got very confused trying to reconcile monotheism with the 'look our god is better than your god' Old Testament stories - because they didn't appear to be saying the other gods weren't real. Just not as good.

Listen I'm not saying the UK has fucked up the Christianity there beyond my Native American comprehension *BUUUUUUT***

yeah judaism doesn't ever say other beings of power don't exist, or that it's bad for their worshippers to worship them

it literally just says that is you're part of the tribe of israel That's Not What We Do so don't do it

I will also add, that Britain (brought it to American & Australia though) is the only ones who have a fucked up idea of the apocalypse because they re-interpreted Ragnarok badly

Also used to pray to angels but I can't blame the church for that just my parents who taught me I had a guardian angel and should pray to him every night. That and the 'pray to the saint of whatever your problem is' stuff.

We do have saints for everything but you aren't supposed to pray to your angel. You can ask your angel to help, but they're just ^ like your car engine, you should be asking God

well and that the One God is the True Creator and Ultimate Power but that's not presented as a moral issue just facts

Yes

^ RELATED

Luis Frois presented it to Oda Nobunaga like that too

"No, he's above Amaterasu because he created the sun physical things are deities"

Cue Nobuanga constantly trying to fight Gods :|

Not that he stopped since his childhood

judaism doesn't really have anything even close to the whole "convert or go to hell" thing tho, i'm honestly not even sure where Christianity got that

Roman Empire issues

i don't think it's in Zoroastrianism, tho i could be forgetting about it

ESPECIALLY Hell

Because it's just Hades which is also just Sumerian Underworld

And Dante's Inferno is stupid fucking fanfic

But because it's also combined with Norse (See "HELL for Hel/ena")

They're like "ahhhhhhhhhhaaaaa"

I mean kinda, with some random biblical references mixed in but pretending that they don't refer to literal deserts and literal garbage dumps

Gehenna. See I argue this all the fucking time

lol don't blame the UK for baby Millisa's misconceptions, it was more like Irish superstition from a few generations back (see also: my mother being told as fact stories about some kind of fae, and about a hole in the ground that led to hell)

"There is no hell in Judaism," "-- BUT THE BIBLE SAYS-" "NO IT DOESN'T. It 's just Roman people and the people trying to blend in getting off track. STOP IT"

interesting. Kyle's Grandma was born Irish Catholic and is still but she also ran off to marry a British Jewish man so the traditions get a little game of telephone from there -- MY BABY BRO was going to be a priest, and is still very steeped in Native American Christianity and we went back and forth for decades on religion TLDR; I don't trust

There isn't even really heaven in Judaism, either. It's very vague about what any potential afterlife entails and exactly how it relates in a punishment/reward sense.

NON-indigenous to their region religious interpretations. Which is what I think the biggest problem with UK Christianity is because it's such a fusion

Yes

That has always been my point >>; but ((idiot)) Catholics were like "If being with God because of Jesus is THE BESTEST Than everything else is TORTURE" which is fucking insane

And then they had like

At most it's like saying if you're good, you'll get a ticket. A ticket to what? Ehh don't worry about that. What if you don't get a ticket? Ehh, don't worry about that.

9 layers of Purgatory and all the bishops argued about their existence

and Martin Luther was like "NO! NO PURGATORY"

rofl i mean

I always thought the Sumerian underworld was weirdest. No reward or punishment for what you did in life, it's just boring and you eat dust

And the reason Moosey loves The Good Place is because he's like "But all they're doing is saying we need a Purgatory!"

I think that makes the most sense to me

The misinterpretation of Gehenna is hilarious though

there is some vague God's Presence thing??? sort of???? but again what the hell does that even mean?!

it's not like you can go somewhere else without god's presence, so??????????

I don't think people -need- to be "rewarded or punished" for their deeds, it's all karma (see Asian Indian philosphy) and it should be more Quantum Physics of

"Let's say there is NO afterlife. Instead of acting like a miserable nihilist annoying sociopath; how about you make life really awesome and the best you can and stop worrying about what comes after, because we have no way of knowing"

BUT I AM EXPLICITLY NOT A CALVINIST.

yeah the majority of jewish religious morality boils down to "the world is a mess and our job is to try and make it less messed up so we should really try and do our job. also god will be sad if you're a dick about it, don't harsh god's vibes."

And Limbo! My baby sister was actually baptised twice. First at less than a week old because she had to have an operation and my parents were scared in case something went wrong, and then again at the normal age with the big party. Which is slightly odd.

Yeah I just

They did away with it because it's kind of beyond stupid? but >>; this is what happens when you don't want to micromanage humanity and humanity is just left to its peer pressure dumbassery and demons break the rules because they're demons that's their thing and so it all gets fucked up :V

I mean the whole 'make life awesome' thing is very existentialist. It works!

imo a god that doles out immortal suffering for mortal faults is somewhere between asshole and monster, so XD

Yeah like literally

If I beleived that, I don't want to be with that God

SO

i know it's argued you can't judge god by mortal standards, but i call bs on that, that's just a cheap way to dodge theodicy

How about I either make my own who is actually pure and just fucking doesn't want to micromanage because it's too much even for a creator

Drag God into being better too :VVV

"I can't be judged by mortal standards" is the argument of evil suckering naïve authoritarians

"You can't do that" Fucking stop me then

rofl right

also baptism is super weird if you think about it

I love how weird baptism is

It's so dumb idec

Especially when it gets down to 'you were a good person but you believed in the wrong god and didn't worship ME, so you go to hell for eternity' which would make God evil

I mean in Native American philosophy water is VERY VERY sacred in that water = (purifying giving) life

(Somewhere Aqua from Konosuba is sneezing)

(I know about the 'virtuous pagan' thing but that was for people who hadn't heard of Christianity, which in the internet age is unlikely)

But it's not like baptism gets rid of the initial sin of humanity so OKAY

Yes TBF Like that's Not Catholic tradition at all and also a BIG part of why they have Purgatory

"If you aren't ritually cleansed of sin you go to Heck Lite no matter your merit. But the really important thing is faith! Except for this magic bath that's kind of more important and something only we can do even though it's a thing that had been done for centuries before us."

so you can sit and be like "I didn't believe this shit, can I really go to heaven" and it's like "Maybe, but first let's figure out your shit"

Heck Lite

AGAIN I just.... fucking can't with Calvinism sorry not sorry

Symbolic magic bath

https://heckinooc.dreamw... the timing of getting this tag for Cupid

right right i forgot wasn't the crucifixion supposed to have addressed original sin? .....but it didn't really???? or something???

i swear the more i try to understand sin in christianity the more it sounds like debt and credit scores in the us

I don't know but I am reminded of having to write an essay quoting Augustine when he claimed that babies were clearly sinful because they... cry for attention even when they don't really need anything.

jesus basically made it that humanity could join God (heaven) now if they wanted to

Lolol. Klaus ready to meet random people and have deep discussions about how god hates him

Dude. Attention is a need when you are a baby.

i feel like there's an awful lot of hoops jumped through to cleanse of sin but every time you turn around NOPE STILL SINFUL

Hence why "Judaism doesn't have Heaven" and i'm like "no duh >>"

MillisaK: Yeah Augustine was DEEP into thought crime

Like get a grip bro

ANYWAY

Augustine, bro, they have literally no other way to communicate or to gauge their own needs. If you don't like babies just say so, you don't have to call them sinful.

Purgatory sort of makes sense until you get the churches selling indulgences which is just an unbelievably evil capitalist move

It's not like original sin is abolished, obviously, people still sin, the idea is that now because of Jesus (who is also god in Christianity, don't forget) sacrificing himself by living on Earth and being tortured (which makes so many theological issues) people can now repent -> be forgiven -> go to heaven

...then again i feel like a lot of christian scholars have struggled to differentiate "i don't like X" from "X is sinful"

.........so basically on par with internet fandoms

but it's not a "go directly to heaven, do not pass jail, collect infinite wealth" pass

Yes

MillisaK: So as a STILL practicing Catholic, and obviously we no longer do this, but WHY WAS IT DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE -- above I mentioned you're not supposed to pray directly to your angel(s) but you can ask them to pray for you because TIME CONSTRAINTS and if you try your best and fail is god really going to be mad etc.

It was just a way of alleviating people's guilt (in theory) that their dead family member was a fucking POS and they couldn't do fuck all to make them NOT a POS

...so the crucifixion didn't wash away original sin, it just opened the bank's debt payment hotline

And the idea is "You're too fucking busy to pray 1000 fucking rosaries a day, I will do it for you." It's liek the greenwashing for religion

..........that seems even weirder

"What's that, can't meet your carbon footprint goals? I will plant a 100 trees in your name for MONEY"

OH IT IS

IT IS FUCKING FUCKED

I'm not saying "Oh yes, this is a perfectly sensible and one true philosophy all should follow"

I'm saying "Yeah, isn't that fucking weird? That's not even the tip of the iceberg"

I mean everyone who's ever had near death experiences has said though that God would really rather we stopped obsessing about death and just you know

Right right and if you are poor, too bad, you can't help your dead relatives

-Live our lives-

No no the poor are inherently better in Christianity because they're more like Jesus and see also: Beautitudes

well i mean just from a jewish textual analysis/legalism standpoint why does god have to go through a sacrificial ritual to make a new means of redemption instead of just... saying you can also do X

It's the rich assholes who need the most help

Exacerangutan: because humans are so fucking dumb that they created sacrifice rituals in the first fucking place so he had to finish it and be like "THERE. NOW STOP DOING THAT"

(yes silverwolfcc I hope you don't mind me being critical - definitely not trying to blame you or other still practicing Catholics for any of the weird church stuff,and I always appreciate the clarifications because my religious education was actually dreadful in hindsight. No explanation or analysis at all, just 'we believe this')

...but it's like a complete subversion of the binding of isaac, and that was about "stop doing that"

No problem I'm not taking ANYTHING personally because I am 1000% aware it's silly

And I play the fucking "I am Buddha Satan and will KILL GODS" Oda Nobunaga who punched Christianity God in the face

He's very proud of himself

Aw good I'm glad

Exacerangutan: So it goes 30 ways. AGAIN: Not a Calvinist and I can't be assed to pretend I am so I can't accurately defend it, so if this is off, I'm sorry but -> there's the idea of predeterminism that God KNEW Humans would be MEAN and fucking crucify him because Humans AMIRITE (see the sacrifice)

Yeah I was explicitly taught that the moral of the Isaac story was that Abraham was a good godly man because he was willing to sacrifice his son. Didn't realise different until I mentioned it to a Jewish friend who was all wtf no.

The more Catholic / GENERIC / way is that he came down because he promised to live as a human so he could see how it sucked and show us how to do better and that without him we wouldn't have figured it out for xyz millennia and/or would have just been like all the other idk religions??? and/or having issues

(Also sidenote on rich people, that 'camel through the eye of a needle' line is my favourite bad translation ever)

Everything he did humans can do they just need SUPER STRONG FAITH -- the theory goes.

Then you get DEEP into "what is faith" I can't even begin with that but the general / Catholic in the all religions go to heaven / approach is that Jesus was just supposed to show us how to do it right. He wasn't PREDESTINED TO DIE, Humans fucked up and killed him anyway but towards that end he was like "They are really going to kill me what can I do"

And a sort of "Make your death MEAN SOMETHING" martyrdom which is a huge fucking Catholic tradition

But god knew/understood it COULD happen, and chose not to stop it via doing miracles that other humans can't do

To teach us the importance of it and to make it super famous because Long Term Vision

MillisaK: The modern equivalent is just "It's easier to walk around Gotham in the Great Depression and not get killed by a robber like Batman's parents" but yes. I like that they made an Eye of A Needle arch in Israel. Just "Hahah we tricked God again!!" okay guys.

sorry i'm behind, have become cat bed

eeeeeee

I think God in general would rather people stopped blind obedience, like you have a brain, use it, but there are definitely a lot of cults that LARP as Christians who are just "THE PROBLEM IS WE ARE NOT BLINDLY OBEDIENT ENOUGH" like nah naaaaaaaah. I think it'd be the funniest thing ever if Nobunaga met Christian God and just was "ISN'T MY INSOLENCE BAD?

THIS IS WHY I'M THE DEMON KING" and God was just like "I'm so proud of you ;~;" Nobuanga would wanna punch him :V

I mean Moses fucking argued with God constantly so \:|/

Pretty sure that's not a dealbreaker for God

And Jesus argued with the Temples' rabbis and scholars as you do

rofl yeah the obedience reading of the binding does exist, but so does the "even a moral bastion so strong he pushed god into compassion five times in a row can lose the ability to keep pushing back" reading where the binding is Abraham's great moral failing

i mean yeah arguing is a pretty core jewish tradition XD

like literally one interpretation of what the defining feature of the tribe of Israel is

and/or what Jacob's redeeming quality was, since he was kind of a scoundrel and a dickhead

Once again, I'm really not a big fan of Martin Luther's interepretation of it

honestly most of the patriarchs are kind of assholes or screwups one way or another, basically Joseph and Moses are generally pretty cool, and even they have their moments

((Which is the "Abraham had SO MUCH FAITH AND LOVE IN GOD")) which is not standard Catholic

yeah

Luther was basically "THIS PROVES YOU SHOULD NEVER QUESTION GOD!11!11"

And i'm like "Bruh"

I mean it only works if you think of a son as basically his father's property which - okay culturally at the time I get it, but as a modern reader, ick

No like

torah ain't about giving you a clean and simple story about how right you are

They didn't even then, the idea was that

yeaaaaaaaaah

here is where I channel Ari like 'but what about Isaac's rights, huh? He's not choosing to sacrifice himself for religious reasons'

It was Abraham being tested, he didn't say "wait God you said you wanted his line to help humanity how can that happen after he's dead? "

fr

MillisaK: so... the positive reading is that god has promised Abraham that he'd be the father of a numerous nation, so obviously even of god said to kill his only son, then things had to turn out okay somehow, right?!?! his faith was sooo strong! .....which... fine i guess, but why does god need to do a test like that?

Like I said, it's really difficult for NON-Native religions to get reinterpreted because of translation and tradition and the game of telephone which gets a million times worse when memories and non-written accounts are utilized

...it's a very weird episode, implying a very limited, very naive, very insecure god, if forcing a demonstration of faith is the real purpose

I think at least some of the obedience = good stuff comes from later when it ended up a state religion, because convincing people that being meek and blindly obedient is what they should aspire to is useful. But I'm cynical.

The Catholic interpretation is that it was so he could show Isaac how resurrection works but I'm still forever "Abraham what"

sure. I mean that was what all the "BAD" countries in Old Testament did

But notice How I say Bad :V

in contrast to, say, the garden of eden, where god doesn't need to cook up complicated tests, god just says "where are you"

Exacerangutan: yes I agree with that! It makes sense as a dramatic story but what it tells us about the character of God in that case is very odd and not what was intended

Oh don't even get me started on that. So many people are like "YOU CAN BECOME INVISIBLE TO GOD"

Like.

no. Stop it.

which... to be clear is traditionally not "why doesn't god know where Adam is?" but more "what's going on with you? we both know i know what you're doing so why don't you stop hiding and just engage with me?"

rofl i have a whole pile of soapboxes about the garden of eden

^ THAT

SEE ALSO

Nobunaga is when you take kuchiki Noh theater to the NEXT LEVEL of metaphors and everyone takes you literally anyway

my big one is "what the hell do you think the expulsion was for?!"

Yes

so many "they ate a fruit" or "they got horny" or "ot was a magic fruit" or "they were disobedient" takes

Okay at the risk of sounding ignorant I did think it was because they ate the one fruit they had been told not to eat, so disobedience (side-effects of said fruit being something else)

if not that then what?

that is a very common reading, just not the only one, and imo the least instructive

so... basically, order of operations

1. god says you can eat anything but from those trees, eat from those trees and you will diiieeee
2. snake is like "pff i mean the fruit isn't gonna kill you that's silly"
3. eve eats the fruit
4. eve shares the fruit with adam
5. they gain larger self-awareness and self-conscience and worry about being naked

6. god notices they're being shy suddenly and goes to check on them, asks why they are the fruit they were especially told not to eat
7. adam says "she made me do it"
8. eve says "the snake made me do it"
9. then they get kicked out

if anything to do with the fruit or the act of disobedience were the real problem, why bother getting adam and eve to testify against a reptile

so i'd argue the sin was not disobedience or fruit or sexy thoughts or whatever, the sin was blaming someone else for their actions despite having self-knowledge

i contend that if either of them had said "you know, i don't have a good excuse, i know you said not to but i was curious and it seemed not that bad but it was wrong of me, i'm sorry" they would have been fine

Ooh. Very interesting. So if instead they'd taken responsibility like 'yeah we did that, we were curious--' yep what you just said

I haven't encountered this theory before but it makes a lot of sense

otherwise, God is either sadistic enough or stupid enough to go to two beings who according to the story itself have no comprehension of good and evil, and give them a test clearly designed for them to fail it, and then punish them for falling into the trap God had set, which?????????

also, Apple, your autocorrect suuuuuuuuuuuuucks

I also don't think the intention was in the original text but it fascinates me how this is where they develop self-awareness, knowledge of good and evil, and the curses put on them involve painful childbirth (larger brains?!) and agriculture of all things

....but that reading isn't very conducive to the notion of original sin, so i'm not surprised it didn't catch on as a dominant interpretation XD

rofl yeah it definitely one of those "this lines up in some interesting ways..." things

I mean it still kind of works, just that the original sin would be not eating the apple but blaming someone else afterwards. Which would probably have had some butterfly effect on Christian morality if it were the dominant interpretation.

Cool. This c9nvo has fucked my Google and now I'm getting ads for various Bible studies lmfao

I said this before elsewhere but it's also

According to Catholic apologist tradition

yeah, but if the sin is "did a bad thing with knowledge it was bad," how do you apply that automatically to people who haven't done bad things and/or don't yet know good from evil?

And ergo no longer even CLOSE to fictional modern stuff

- the fruit of knowledge is not omnipotence, but the knowledge of bad things. Ie: literally doing wrong (see also self awareness) before that they were in basically heaven and immortal. So the fruit wouldn't directly kill them, but they would literally now die no longer immortal

silverwolfcc: right right, arguably even just the awareness of mortality

The free will already existed (many fictional stories glhave it in the fruit) but the demon/snake Crowley if you feel like it was like "but you aren't even aware of the bad things ARE you really free?"

in many ways the Fruit is Knowledge is a representation of adulthood, hence mortality and responsibility for one's choices

Meanwh8le completely NOT Doctrine there was an angels vs demons fight about giving humans free will or maybe it was favoring humans > angels and that's how Lucifer and 7 deadly sins descended and he got Eve to eat the apple because he was mad

right, the no-consequences freedom of childhood is freedom but it's kind of empty freedom

Exacerangutan: you can, but that takes us back to Augustine and his sinful babies. I take your point, though. Not even so much adulthood as the age of reason. Knowing right from wrong

rofl yeah fair, evil evil babies

I do agree it's not the disobedience, God basically probably meant them to eat it eventually but only when they could handle it. It's the lying and blaming each other and being scared of God's judgemental like he literally never punished them before so what are yoy scared of losers?-> but the fruit of knowing about bad things created "omg what if..." worries

Hmm. If you completely lack any knowledge of bad things, are you good? You're not choosing to be good, because you can't choose not to

silverwolfcc: if i'm going to entertain the notion of Lucifer, then yeah i tend to take a Netflix Dracula sort of "why are you elevating these little assholes?!" motivation for him XD

(... something something Newspeak Sapir-Whorf)

MillisaK: YEP

Also I've been saying my whole life and will never fucking stop: the Bible is just about don't give into peer pressure, do what your conscience (God + brain + logical reasoning) says is right.

The apple is just about peer pressure. Then they're all "we want a king, give us a king" and God's like "no you fucking don't" "yes we do the other countries are mean to us fir not being like them!"

at a fairy tale level you can just accept that the trees are there Just Because, but of you want the text to be about something, you start wondering wtf were they even there for if they weren't supposed to be eaten

Solomon makes a bunch of heretic temples to appease his way too many wives and dooms the country

rofl

All of Moses journey is about how weird he was for not caving in,the second he turns his back, they make a golden statue and boom peer pressure gone wild

Noah's Ark? Peer pressure. Lot and family? Peer pressure.

yeah there's a lot of "don't do shit just because the other nations/tribes/neighbors/etc are doing it" in torah

I'm 99% convinced the original sin is just "peer pressure is the stupidest fucking hangover from great ape evolution can you ficking stop with that yet?"

MAGA be like "No!"

I don't know if either of you have watched the TV show The Traitors, which is fairly trashy reality TV but also an interesting look at humanity's worst habits. The contestants have to figure out who the secret traitors are and vote them out. Someone will get accused for some spurious reason and very quickly people leap in with 'yeah he's a traitor!'

(also i maintain the 40 years of wandering was not a punishment, it was "ok these people are clearly still too indoctrinated with Egyptian slave-brain to become responsible for themselves as their own nation, let's make that a thing for their grandchildren")

Even weirder is when it's revealed that the person wasn't, some people will be quite sheepish like 'I knew he wasn't, I don't know what came over me'. Scary groupthink in action

Re: "if you don't about bad things how are you choosing good" Exactly. It wasn't eating it that's the problem even though god meant fir them to wait until they wouldn't fuck it up. It was that the first thing they did was feel super fucking ashamed and make clothes and want to hide

Like again God never punished them, they had no real reason to fear him =/

Then they lied and blamed rach other and blamed peer pressure

like, they didn't turn to the golden calf out of malice; Moses took too long coming down from the mountain and they got scared that maybe he was wrong and immediately fell back on what they already knew

*each I'm on phone now it shows lol

Agreed on all accounts though again

Fuck peer pressure

MillisaK: yeah groupthink is hella scary when you see it in action

And yeah lucifer is basically Dracula in that

He's been Flanderized beyond Canon even more than Nobunaga obviously because at least Nobunaga had some first hand historical accounts

But I think that's part of humanity coming / trying to understand redemption and history's arc better

my version of Lucifer like "humans were a mistake, and I'm gonna fucking prove it!!!" which tbh is relatable if wrong

But it's like Hades I mean they made him out to be Satan a lot which is surreally offense I like that the internet is making it so that people are finally going different directions with it

(although when i play with concepts of Hell, i also parse them as something you do to yourself through your own unresolved hangups, not a punishment enacted from on high)

I do think humans / specifically Adam and Eve / just could not handle the magnitude of infinity at the time see also: brain size and why childbirth hurts but whales with bigger brains don't have that

The wildest thing to me is when you get the Christians arguing back against anti-science literalists ie: no no of course dinosaurs exist and are why mammals have shorter lifespans

i like the idea of Hell as an especially nasty patch of sheol formed by it being where Lucifer sits and sulks angrily forever surrounded by all the other neurotic, self-destructive, pathological souls that congregate around his misery

"God meant for mammals to live longer, but he had to speed up killing the dinosaurs so they wouldn't eat us"

and God just being like "you guys know you can just stop pouting in the corner any time, right? no? ok."

Like um not saying you're wrong, but there is so much to unpack there I'm not going to bother. Please do things that make you / others happy and stop worrying about this

XD

Exacerangutan: accurate

That is kind of the thread happening lol

The extreme anti-science types are so weird because no amount of evidence will make them change their minds. Literal ancient dinosaur skeleton? Oh the devil put that there to test our faith, it's fake

it makes the whole Christian asymmetric dualism thing make a lot more sense if Lucifer's objective isn't to "make war on heaven" which is dumb as hell and makes no sense, but just to prove the humans suck and don't deserve redemption

...but that also makes not being a dick much more important than running around doing conversion or paying tithe, so...

I like obey me interpretation that lillith was the baby sister of the 7 deadly sins when they were still angels but she fell in love with Adam when she wasn't supposed to and snuck off to give him a golden apple from heaven so he wouldn't die

interesting

Literally hell broke loose and they all got kicked out and lillith became human and Michael's still yandere for Lucifer who is just "fuck you, I live in devildom now. Suck a bag of dicks"

But also they thought lillith died because they didn't really know what was happening but MC is her descendant and gets to reveal that etc

Exacerangutan: yes. Lucifer in obey me is also extreme Nobunaga overlap but a chill sadist not a

"The Buddhist monks HATE ENTHUSIASM SO UM GONNA BE SO FOOL OF OWARI THEIR HEADS EXPLODE" With fireworks and guns pew pew

But you know Japanese otome ambiguous protag demon ^ highest rank so yeah ofc they overlap.

You'd think diavolo the demon prince who was never an angel, just straight up born as a demon prince would be more Nobunaga overlap but noooope

XD

He does have the enthusiasm because again; Japan, but he's also just

idk i'd expect pure demon to be more kenshin

Not proud, not a sadist, half human, but no like "fuck you god" attitude at all understandably because he's like "thanks fir sending me some best friends I was lonely ;;"

Nah Kenshin's god of war. Like literally brainwashed by cults and family to be that so

....yup? XD

Barbatos is Sebastian though because ofc he is

But originally they were just going to make him a door not a character or even npc

So that diavolo would have extra reason to be lonely af

But they had too many things they wanted a demon gate to do so they were like "what if it's a demon butler, diavolo can just be like okay but it's not like he can refuse my orders like the brothers / MC"

Nah Diavolo wants peace between all 3 realms hence why you'd think he would overlap with Oda instead of Luci